20. Embracing Vulnerability, Navigating Rock Bottom, and Leading with Purpose | Sarah Manley

Sarah Manley (: 00:09

I don't believe anyone gets chances like that in life. And I think when you do, if you then don't go and try and do something with that life, that second chance that you've been given, then maybe you're not that deserving of it. I think I am deserving of it. I think I have this phenomenal opportunity now to go and do good things. And that's the purpose element. I want to be involved in some way in making things better for others.

because that's my start, but I have to go big and I have to go hard because I got the second shot.

Digby Scott (: 00:49

Here's a question for you. What if your leadership was about recognising and acting on the second chances you've been given? Worth thinking about, right?

Hi, I'm Digby Scott, and this is Dig Deeper, a podcast where I have conversations with depth that'll change the way you lead. And in this conversation with Sarah Manley, who's chief executive of MITEI New Zealand, we explore how personal challenges can become a driving force for positive change. If you're struggling to find your purpose or wondering how to lead more authentically in challenging times, you'll love listening to Sarah's profound insights on transforming personal obstacles into meaningful leadership. Let's dive in.

Hey Sarah, welcome to the show.

Sarah Manley (: 01:29

Thank you, Digby. It's so nice to be here.

Digby Scott (: 01:32

How's your wake pain?

Sarah Manley (: 01:33

It's actually been really good. And I say actually, just because the last few weeks I've been running around like a headless chicken and that gets really draining and cumbersome. think we all know that feeling after a while. So just to have a week where there's a bit of intention and purpose and calm brings a whole new meaning to finishing strong on a Friday.

Digby Scott (: 01:56

It's a Friday. What do you reckon was different that created that experience of this week? What wasn't there or what was there that made it a little less frenetic?

Sarah Manley (: 02:09

But to be frank, less meetings. You have those weeks where you're doing sometimes back to backs or I find too a lot in my role out and about. So sometimes it's just even the logistics of getting from one meeting and I'm right in middle of town and actually then I need to get out west and then I need to circle back. And then often as parents or caregivers, aren't we, we're then doing all the other things around that. So there's just those weeks that you don't know if you're Arthur or Martha or you're coming or you're going. And this week there just wasn't as many.

meetings, quite frankly, and actually, you've triggered my memory because at the beginning of the week, we were meant to have a senior leadership team meeting and we all decided collectively via our WhatsApp chat, we're not doing it this week. The best thing we can do as a team is to gift that hour and a half back, give everyone back some time and everybody do with it what you will. And it just changed.

I thank The Week for everyone. So thank you for asking that. was because we started off not having a meeting on Monday.

Digby Scott (: 03:09

It's that first decision of the week that sounded like it set you up for the rest of the week. And I reckon, yeah, meeting culture, it's just meetings because that's what we do. I love how you, you deliberately ask the question, do we need this? What's purpose? And actually what's the high purpose that we all want to be moving towards? Which is, I think that's incredible. It's I wish.

Sarah Manley (: 03:16

It did.

Digby Scott (: 03:38

I wish more of the organisations I worked with had that as a question at the start of the week. How do we want to spend our time?

Sarah Manley (: 03:45

Yes, I think that's a really important question because we don't realise how quickly we just get into habits. You we just keep doing what we've been doing because that's what we do and a meeting would make sense because theoretically we'll be collaborating and there's teamwork and there's communication. So we're doing all the things we're meant to be doing, but actually it doesn't need to be through the form necessarily of a meeting to achieve that.

Digby Scott (: 04:07

Can I just double down? I'm interested in what led you to ask the question in the first place, you know, on Monday morning or Sunday night when you're thinking about it.

Sarah Manley (: 04:17

quite selfish, I was feeling drained. So I was doing a little bit of reflection and I'm a real energy, high energy people person. And so I'll get into the meeting with anyone really, but I was sort of like, I just don't, it's not that I don't, know, the team's fabulous. I just, I don't know. That sort of feeling of, well, if I don't want to go and do that, they probably don't want to go and do that either. And then you do the whole, well, actually, what do we need to talk about?

And then you're like, actually, there's maybe two people that involves and I can give them a phone call. There you go. Everyone's looking a little bit flat. Everyone's looking a bit over it. Everybody was really happy. So I think it's just, it's listening to that little inner voice.

Digby Scott (: 05:01

Yeah. Isn't it interesting, right? We're, you know, we're told to listen well to other people, but it's actually the first person we need to listen to it as ourselves. Yes. Yeah, that's brilliant. And then you acted on it, right? Which some people might find a bit courageous. It's like, you know, hang on, maybe other people do want this meeting and I'm going to be seen to be not committed. Something like that.

Sarah Manley (: 05:21

Yeah, I'm a big believer in gut instinct. And I know it sounds a bit Oprah because this actually did come from Oprah, but I think it's brilliant. And that is, she always said, I don't listen to my heart and I don't listen to my head because they're both sending me messages, conflicting messages. But your gut instinct, your gut will tell you every time. And I think there's something about that gut instinct. If you're feeling it, it's sending you a message and you need to really listen to what it is.

Digby Scott (: 05:51

How do you know the difference between your gut and your heart? Because I sit and I go, is that a physical feeling? How do you discern that? Because I think that'd be useful for me to other people to understand. How do you do that?

Sarah Manley (: 06:06

That's such a good question. For me though, my reaction to that is, and I'm definitely someone that thinks with their heart. I know that. And I've made some brilliant decisions that way, but I've also made some absolutely terrible ones. And I think the difference is it's because something's in front of you, you're using your love filter, but there's just that feeling like I'm taking a risk here, but it's for love or I've made it through love, therefore it's kind of love is the answer.

Digby Scott (: 06:13

That's a great

Sarah Manley (: 06:36

No, it's not. It's a feeling. It's just a feeling. So I think there is something about just going, actually, I'm not listening to this and I'm not going to listen to this either because this can send funny messages to you at times too. Many times it will send funny messages to you. But you got that feeling in your stomach of this is the right thing to do or we just have to be brave and listen to it.

Digby Scott (: 07:02

And I wonder whether there's an in-between bit between this is the right thing to do and this is the wrong thing to do. And in between this, this, I'm not really sure. I'm just going to have to sit with this tension for awhile. I'll give you an example. So I'm moving house in about less than two weeks. I love where I live. My partner and I, we've been together awhile, but we haven't lived together and we're moving in together in it. And we're going, okay, let's get neutral territory, right? Let's get a new place.

I'm going to rent this house out where I am now. I've had all of these mixed feelings with the gut or heart. I'm not sure about the move and I've been really honest with my partner about that and I'm we're moving and I'm looking forward to it. And I'm also noticing there's a grieving, right? And there's all of these different things that are going on for me. And rather than try to solve it, I'm just being with it and noticing

Actually, what I'm noticing day to day is how it slowly changes and some days it's more heightened and other days it's not. And I'm just sitting with it and I'm wondering whether for leaders and I'm how you sit with the maybe not resolving it straight away and making a call on it and whether that's something that you're familiar with.

Sarah Manley (: 08:24

wow, gosh that's really, really powerful Digby and exciting. I've learnt you must sit with things. It's fundamentally important and sometimes it's all you can do because actually, know, that moment where you're sitting there, you know, like looking around your house going, you know, and now I'm leaving and I'm really excited to move in with someone else but actually it's also like, my god, we're moving in together. This is a little bit exciting but scary exciting and there's all these range of emotions coming at you and you're...

you're doing the whole I'm looking forward, but needing to also maybe honor where you've come from and what's got you to that place. And I think you do have to sit in it. I have been someone in the past, definitely a fault of mine is I've acted too quickly because I'm an emotional person and I feel my emotions and I wear my heart on my sleeve. At times I've made decisions too quickly because I've acted impulsively on that emotion.

But at other times that served me well as well, you know, cause you're in the moment and you're true to yourself and you let it out and you go with it. But there is a real art to sitting in something, letting it wash over you.

Digby Scott (: 09:33

That's a great way to put it.

Sarah Manley (: 09:34

taking the time to go, actually, the next thing I need to do is this, or actually, I don't need to do anything. was a moment. I've gone through that moment. I'm moving on to the next part.

Digby Scott (: 09:44

What habits or rituals or practices do you have that lets you A, recognize that, this is something I need to sit with rather than decide on and B, lets you stay with the tension. How do you practically do that?

Sarah Manley (: 10:02

Yeah, there's two things probably in the last couple of years I've really adopted in the last year in particular that's been a game changer for me. And that has been taking the time to journal in the morning and reflect on the day ahead in the evening before. And it takes me, you know, maybe five minutes. I think when people hear about this, like, I don't have time for that. It takes me no more than five minutes.

And I've got this wonderful journal that I sort of follow and it's got great prompts in there. I mean, there's a lot of things out there now, but gosh, that's made a difference for me. It has made a massive difference for me because I have to reflect on things that either were fabulous and why were they great and that, you know, really high energy. And I have to sit there and think about what I really want to intentionally and purposefully spend my time on for the day ahead. And just doing that exercise.

has really made me think deeply about not what I want to do that day, but who I want to be. wow. You want to be. Yeah. This would be the second part, I guess, about another habit is I've just started to read and listen and take a real interest in people who are exceptional. And there's a range of them, not just nationally, but internationally. And I'm not talking about the operas of the world.

Digby Scott (: 11:06

Tell us about that.

Sarah Manley (: 11:25

But I listened to this amazing podcast last year with, actually ironically it was Sir John Kirwan, but it was Gilbert Enoka. And he talked about, we're all too busy doing to-do lists instead of doing the to-be list. And he talked about in his work around sort of being a mental health life skills coach for some of the most high performance teams in New Zealand and in the world was he would sit down and think about actually who's the leader I need to be today.

And what's that going to involve? And so it's not the transactional, I've got to do the board reports, I've got to speak to this funder, I've got to do this, I've got to do that. It's actually, how do I need to show up today? But if you don't set the time and energy and space to actually think about that and craft that up, you can't be those things. So journaling has been a really big difference. And like I said, actively going out and listening and hearing

other rituals that people have put in place, it's as simple as that. And it's kind of true, but once you start talking and connecting with people who inspire you, you yourself just want to do better and be better.

Digby Scott (: 12:36

Yeah, you know, you get inspired by the company you keep, right? And if you hang around people that are have integrity, that are people who are looking to be the best version of themselves every day, and they're very intentional about that, you can't help but be lifted or at least invited to be lifted. You know, that's absolutely brilliant. There's a tool I developed through when I used to do a lot of coaching work called Bigger Me. Don't say it too fast, but Bigger Me and

There's two versions of us. There's bigger me and smaller me. And the bigger me is the intentional one that you want to show up that you know, you're capable of being. And smaller me is a bit more of a fear driven one that is a bit more, yeah, that version that shows up maybe a little bit more often than I'd like. And we need to know both of those versions. And then I love your idea of essentially you're journaling. What's the bigger me look like today? And that serves you in terms of.

Sarah Manley (: 13:21

Yes, yay.

Digby Scott (: 13:33

Okay, there's some tension that I'm noticing. All right. And so maybe I don't need to solve that today, but I just know I need to be with it and I need to be the best version of me.

Sarah Manley (: 13:43

Yep, and also just being honest and real about these days I'm the small version of me or I did not bring the best version of me today and why. Sit back and think, okay, why did I show up that way in a meeting? Why did I ask a question in such a sort rude and patronizing manner? And just work through that and have that moment, okay, I did it. It was wrong. I need to reach out to that person and have a conversation and apologize or work that through.

But I don't have to be that. I can be different tomorrow, and that's OK.

Digby Scott (: 14:15

Yeah, there's a lot of self-compassion in that. You're not beating yourself up. You're acknowledging that maybe you weren't your best version. Yeah. And you're like, all right, and I can keep improving. I can keep changing. Yes. There's a lot of intentionality in that as well, like your whole story then about sitting in the morning for five minutes, being intentional about who you want to be today. When I reached out to you, it's because you struck me from what I was reading about you and noticing is,

on your LinkedIn profile, for example, it starts with, I'm a purpose driven leader, you know, and I love working with people like you. And when we talked before we decided to record today, you know, a couple of weeks ago, I learned a bit about your origin story and I can't help but think that there is a link between your origin story and the purpose driven leader that you are today. Tell us a little bit about

where life began for you and you know it's a long story right how you got here today but I'm curious about your early years or your early weeks in fact and those early shaping forces and how they've shaped your sense of purpose and identity.

Sarah Manley (: 15:32

Sure, yeah. So yeah, I definitely have an interesting, I guess, origin story. And that is that I was actually, I was born in Chile, Santiago, Chile, and I was adopted out at five weeks old. My mum, who adopted me, she's a Kiwi, and our dad, who has since passed, he was an Aussie. And they have three natural born sons who are all tall and blonde. And then there's me. And I'm actually in the middle. There's actually, you know, a natural born son after me, Simon.

He's tall and blonde as well. Everyone's tall and blonde

Digby Scott (: 16:02

If you people who can't see us talking you're not tall and blonde. I might be tall

Sarah Manley (: 16:08

I'm

not tall, I'm very short. So really, I was incredibly lucky. my parents just, I mean, this is absolutely random. 43 years ago, friends of theirs had adopted a little girl from Chile and mum and dad fell in love with her. They were living in Australia at the time. I have dual citizenship now, Australia and New Zealand. And they sort of said, you know, we want to do this. We want to give a child.

somewhere internationally who's in horrible circumstances, an opportunity in life. And so they also decided, couldn't speak any Spanish. You know, these were farmers in Australia, outback Australia, and they kept it quiet. They decided not to tell anybody. I think there were other than parents at the time that they wanted to adopt a person from Chile, ideally a girl.

And they did it all through lawyers. I look back on it now. I've got all the paperwork. And it's just incredible. And it just so happened that it was me. The story that we all understand and that mom and dad had verified is that my birth mother was a domestic worker, so probably a maid or working in a home for a wealthy Chilean family. And obviously, something happened in that house. We're sort of one in one to get her here to work this out.

when she went to the man involved and said, you know, I'm pregnant. He said, I don't want anything to do with you or the child, but I'll pay for you to give birth in the hospital, which was quite a big thing back then. So, and then she was very clear. She got a social worker involved and said, I can't have this child because I can't look after her. So I'm going to put her up for adoption. And it's in the papers, it's incredible, but she was really clear. She has to get out of Chile because she will not have a life if this child stays here.

So, which is looking back on it, I mean, wow, what an incredible thing to think and do and selfless. And I mean, I just can't even imagine really having to do that or think like that. And it just so happened this all culminated and my parents came and got me out of an orphanage in Chile at five weeks old. And at the time we went back to Australia and that was how I got now a life that I certainly never would have had.

if I was growing up in Santiago.

Digby Scott (: 18:27

How does your knowledge of that story, because you tell it so clearly, you've clearly dug into it and reflected on it. How do you think that shapes how you show up today?

Sarah Manley (: 18:39

It's really my driver, Digby. It is what shapes me. It is my why, because I don't believe anyone gets chances like that in life. And I think when you do, if you then don't go and try and do something with that life, that second chance that you've been given, then maybe you're not that deserving of it. I think I am deserving of it. I think I have this phenomenal opportunity now to go and do good things. And that's the purpose element is I've come from

a family and parents who did this amazing thing and made one person's world, you know, just through one big decision, but, know, made my whole world better and different. And that was my driver all my life. I want to do the same. I want to be involved in some way and making things better for others because that's my start, but I have to go big and I have to go hard because I got the second shot. So it's this innate thing in me that just drives my why all the time.

Digby Scott (: 19:39

That's amazing. So your chief executive of MITEI, for those of us who might not know much about MITEI, tell us what's MITEI about.

Sarah Manley (: 19:47

Yeah, so MITEI is delivered through the Sir John Kirwan Foundation and we deliver evidence-based mental health education into primary and intermediate schools throughout the country. So it's a whole school approach over three years where we send in a coach and that coach embeds that mental health education through the curriculum to make sure it's as normal as maths, as science, as English.

It's really comprehensive. It's got to be that three-year partnership to really embed the learnings and shape how a school shows up and what it does. This is the brainchild of Sir John-Kerwin, who has been the face of mental health in New Zealand for many years. And he woke up one morning, saw that we had the worst youth suicide rates in the developed world at that time, and said, I'm still not doing something right. Something's not working here. So that's how MITEI was developed. we're five years in now.

And we're in over 200 schools and reaching about 77,000 students. And we want to get to every primary and intermediate school to deliver this.

Digby Scott (: 20:51

That's incredible. Let's go in the way back machine little way before you join MITEI. You could have gone in a many different directions. Given you're so purpose driven, you want to ensure others get a shot at a good life. Why did you choose this one? This direction.

Sarah Manley (: 21:09

It was a bit funny. I saw the role advertised and I'd seen, I'd met, I think like a lot of people have heard Sir John Kirwan talk about mental health and I had an opportunity once to be in meeting with him and I was quite taken with him, you know, in terms of his vulnerability and the things he wanted to achieve. And then I'd been keeping an eye, I guess you could say on some of the work of MITEI, I'd heard about them and I remember thinking, this is awesome. And then when the role came out, so was almost two years ago now for the CEO, I sort of saw it and I was like,

Oh, am I ready to be a CEO? I don't know. And then within two weeks, I started to get messages from completely random people in different parts of my life going, Sarah, have you seen this role? It's you. And by the time I sort of got that fourth or fifth message, was like, OK, know, the universe again is sending a sign. You saw it. It moved you. People are contacting you saying, this is you. Do it.

Just do it. If you might not even get an interview, you might not make it. It doesn't matter. But just imagine you might. Lo and behold.

Digby Scott (: 22:11

Here you It's that gut at work again, isn't it? And the listening, right? The listening, not just to yourself, but the messages that are coming in. There's fabulous. And you clearly, I mean, just your energy around it's like, this is me. This is who you are. Right. And this is serving a big purpose. love this idea of purpose. I'll often do work with leaders, particularly up and coming leaders around what's your sense of purpose. And it's interesting. There's sort of two.

answers to that one type of answer is the I'd call it attention in it's about me finding meaning in my life and me being the best version of me and all of that right and then there's another set of answers which are there well I'm here to serve something bigger than me that's really what purpose is about it's not really about you yes it's about a cause it's about a mission it's about changing something for the better and you're an agent of that in some way

Sarah Manley (: 23:07

Absolutely. Yeah. And it's so true. It's not about me. Get the irony is it's all about me in the sense that this is what I want to do and this is how I want to be part of it. And this is what I think I can add. And here's how I want to work with others to make all those great things happen. it's finding your purpose and staying really true and aligned to it. It's really powerful.

Digby Scott (: 23:29

Tell us about how you've discerned that. Your journey, like all of our journeys, right? It's a windy, messy, confusing one. And we go down some blind alleys. I'm assuming with you that's the case. Tell us about stories where you've kind of woken up to that sense of purpose. Examples or triggers or pivotal events or people.

Sarah Manley (: 23:52

Yes, gosh, that's so true. And I think the versions of ourselves, the best versions of ourselves are often in those moments that no one sees or no one knows or understands what's going on back here. And I'm quite open to share that just even in the last year, I had a really horrible situation and it was at a really defining moment of my life. So I was happily engaged, recently engaged, very happy, had met this wonderful man and he was wonderful to my son.

a whole heap of things. And long story short, he began to have some mental health issues, which of course I wanted to be really supportive of, because it all happens to us, and you want to support the person that you love. There was months of some really poor behavior, I guess, which I thought was mental health, but actually as things were unpeeled, it was a lot worse than that. And there was a lot of lies. Essentially there was a lot of deceit.

toxicity that was happening. And it all happened around me. And you have that moment of waking up. I woke up one morning and went, my goodness, the rug has literally been pulled now right off of under my feet. This man isn't at all who I thought he was. In fact, you've been sold a complete story here. There's no truth at all in this version of this man and this life that you thought you were just about to have. And you've planned everything around it, like big planning and

buying a home and moving a home and the big thing, opening your child's life to somebody else and letting that person in to the person that you love the most. So, and at the same time, I was trying to lead an organisation, trying to lead an organisation through a really difficult time. think everybody knows the last 12, 24 months in New Zealand, no matter what sector you've been working in, no matter what you've been doing, it's been hard. And suddenly I'm there and I'm like, I...

want the world to swallow me up. How has this happened? I'm meant to be at the top of my professional game and personal, it was all so exciting. And now my whole world has flipped on its head in front of everybody in 15, 20 seconds. But in that moment where it suddenly became clear to me that, my goodness, okay, this is rock bottom. You are here. This is literally, you are now at rock bottom.

It was that moment that I went, okay, Sarah, it's happened and it's horrible and it's gonna take a while to work through. But you were called for bigger things than this moment. This moment is not going to define me. This is a horrible chapter and I can close it and I can close it gracefully as I work through it. But this is not where it ends for me. This, in fact, if anything is gonna motivate me for that next chapter to do better.

and to never find myself in a situation like this again and to pick up on the little things that we feel but we don't unpick them because we're thinking with our love filter and actually be really unstoppable in saying it's only up from here. If you have that sense of purpose, I really believe this, if you know your purpose and you have a strong conviction about wanting to achieve things or do things or be someone, when you're at rock...

Digby Scott (: 26:56

Yeah.

Sarah Manley (: 27:09

bottom, it will get you through. Be it slowly, it will get you through.

Digby Scott (: 27:14

That's an incredible story. And there's something about the way you said, I'm paraphrasing, you are meant for better things than this or bigger things than this. There's something about that. You you said that to yourself, that reminder or that permission or that invitation that just opens up possibility in front of you. And also that when you're talking about rock bottom, you can't go any further down. It's rock.

And so there's well, there's only one way from here, which is up and towards a bigger thing, a better thing. That's an incredible way of operating. That can't have been easy though, to be able to say that to yourself. How did others help through that period?

Sarah Manley (: 28:02

It was incredible. And I do always reflect, Digby, and I'm a very lucky person. When I realised suddenly what was going on and that it was actually dangerous on a whole range of levels and something had to be done, I was very lucky to have the education, the money, the support network to get me out of that situation and put things in place that needed to be put in place. I shudder to think that.

you do realise that things such as domestic violence and psychological abuse and you know, a whole range of things can be happening to people. And there's so many people that can't get out of that situation actually, because you suddenly realise, well, actually, if you don't know how to, and you don't have people to get you through it, how can you? I learned a lot during that time, Digby, because I had to be real. I had to be honest. I had to sit and go, okay, this really horrible thing has happened, but you're in a leadership role.

You're in a really important organisation doing important work. So now you have to lean in to the people who love you both personally and the people who care for you professionally. And I just have to be honest and I have to be real and I have to tell people that this happened. I have to tell people that I'm going through something really gnarly and I'm going to have good days and bad days, but I'm going to be here. And then I just had to be in terms of other people.

Digby Scott (: 29:14

you

Sarah Manley (: 29:25

This is where you, I think, often see the best of people because I was so lucky to have a team that said, you know what, Sarah, we've got this, we've got it. So you just hand over what you need to hand over to us and we've got you. And they really truly did. That was the board. That was Sir John Kirwan who rang me one night. And when I told him and he listened, you know, and I'll never forget, said, Sarah, do you want to go somewhere with your son for a few months and work from there? Like, would that help if you just physically get out of your environment for a while and just go work?

somewhere else, you know, of course I joke, know, Greco-Islands would be fabulous. Just being honest and telling people and just being real and vulnerable and saying this really crap thing has happened. I'm sorry. This is how it is at the moment. Everybody was just there for me, family, friends, colleagues. And I think if anyone was listening to this podcast now and you know, my advice would be when you're at rock bottom, please reach out to others. Other people really want to help. They really, really do.

People can't help if they don't know what's going on for you.

Digby Scott (: 30:26

That's it. The word that comes up for me is acceptance in two forms. One is acceptance of the situation, which is you went, this has happened. Can't change that. Right. Got to accept it. The other one is acceptance of others help. And that means some vulnerability from you. It's interesting that you were attracted to Sir John Kirwan's vulnerability earlier on. said that. And then it was about you having to demonstrate vulnerability at a really tough time to in order allow others to come in.

and accept their help. And you know, it's interesting, this idea, I don't think we need to get to rock bottom to experience the help of others, right? There's something really powerful about knowing that you can't be the hero leader who's just going to grit it out and, you know, love your team story that, we've got this. There's a saying I often use is, which is build relationships before you need them. Yeah.

Sarah Manley (: 31:24

I'm

Digby Scott (: 31:24

You know, have that relationship there in a way that at some point you're probably going to need to draw on the goodwill that the other has. But it doesn't have to be a crisis time, right? No. It can be any time. How do you think about networks of relationships as a leader and how do they serve you? You know, not just in the crisis time.

Sarah Manley (: 31:46

think that everything, think connection with others and networks is fundamental. For a few reasons, I think if we're honest, it's how stuff gets done in New Zealand, but it doesn't matter how savvy we think we are or we're really good at this or really good at that. In New Zealand, there's a really big element of, but I knew this person who knew this person that linked me into and it opened the door. There's so much of that, which I think is really powerful if used in the correct way for the right things.

So I think connections are incredibly important. And then I just think having a group of people, especially if you're in a leadership role, I've certainly learned a CEO role is lonely. Everyone told me it would be, and it is, and it's true.

Digby Scott (: 32:26

Can I just ask about that? Why is it being a CEO lonely? I think we all hear that. How is it lonely and why is it lonely?

Sarah Manley (: 32:34

Here's my theory. These things as CEO, I can't tell the board or don't want to tell the board. And I say this openly, I'll share this with the board. Because it's not the right time or it's a 3 a.m. thought, but it's a 3 a.m. thought that keeps coming up at 3 a.m. for months and months. You're like, I can't, I'm not ready to talk to the board about that yet. Or I have to position that differently with the board. And there's also things you can't tell your staff. It's just the reality of, because these things that you see,

and you know and you're filtering out because you're being told this, but you're having conversations over here and you're also hearing this and then you're externally hearing things and people are, so everything's coming to you. And then of course you have to make informed decisions about all those things that you know and based that on where the organisation wants to go and what's the right thing to do next. But these things you can't tell, you know, I heard that, you know, this is just things that you are sitting on that actually only you alone.

sitting on.

Digby Scott (: 33:34

I've got this visual in my head of like, you know, a triangle that's upside down above you and then another one that's the right way up below you and you're this pinch point in the middle where you've got to hold information and the emotion that comes with that and there's nowhere else you can go. You're kind of like this little pinchy point there.

Sarah Manley (: 33:54

very much a pinchy point. And I think also what I've learned about being a CEO is the paradox of actually nothing is about you as the CEO, but yet everything is because you're at the end of the day, it sits on you, you know, but actually everything that you need to deal with on a daily basis is really nothing to do with you. It's about the higher purpose and your team and your people and wanting to deliver results on your strategy.

If you aren't showing up or you can't do those things well or whatever's going on for you, then none of those things happen. And I think that's the other lonely thing about being a CEO. It's not meant to be about us, but so much of it ends up being about us.

Digby Scott (: 34:33

That's interesting. We started this conversation with how do networks serve you, support you. So you and then you said it's lonely. So let's come back to that. So how do how do others in your network play a role?

Sarah Manley (: 34:47

Yeah, so I was so lucky that when I started this role, part of the package was actually to be part of a connected leadership group, so I had an executive coach, which was brilliant. My goodness, you know, and you don't have to be in a CRO role. Everybody get a mentor. Everybody get someone that you can call and talk about anything with. That's so important. And then Sue Watson, that was with Dr. Sue Watson, she linked me into a group of other senior women and

to this day or even this week. That's probably what also made the week fantastic, because I was meeting with these women having a coffee and donuts, and we sat there for two hours and everybody shared what was going on for them. And it's real in that room. We don't come in and talk CEO stuff. We come in and just talk real stuff. Yeah. And it's just so important to have networks like that.

Digby Scott (: 35:38

It's funny. was hearing a story yesterday about a, not a CEO, but sort of one level down talking about how we paid to be busy. And I felt myself just kind of like get all squirmy with that. And this, your story of meeting with the, these women, senior leaders, two hours talking about yourselves. This person I'm talking about might look at that and going, no, that's what I'm sure what you should be doing, but clearly there's value.

That translates back to how you show up when you're on.

Sarah Manley (: 36:12

There absolutely is because if you don't have a space, I think, in a leadership role, especially a CEO role, where you can talk about some of that real stuff, I think all of that starts eating away at you. And if you're too lonely, and then you're not making great decisions. And then it impacts everybody, right? So you as a leader need to have a network that makes you a great leader. And it's also there for you when you're having moments where actually I'm struggling to turn up to be a great leader. And here's why I think that is, or here's what's going on for me. Can someone?

just help me out here. So I think those things are incredibly important. I would add actually through those connections, a number of amazing work things have happened as well. And that's what I mean about connections in New Zealand. So yes, some people might go, well, that was two hours eating donuts and you're meant to be a CEO and you're getting paid good money to deliver stuff for us. But actually there's a number of work, big, exciting work related things happening for MITEI within that group. So it's, that's the power of connections.

Digby Scott (: 37:11

Absolutely. Beautiful. I'm curious, as you've been talking about, wondering about how your view of leading and being a leader and leadership has evolved over your career, know, early days to now. How's your perspective and what it means to lead shifted?

Sarah Manley (: 37:28

yeah, hugely. I think if I'm honest Digby, I came into leadership roles quite fast. I'm not saying by accident because I don't like that word, but I got a lot of opportunities very early in my life to step into leadership roles. And so I learned a lot by not necessarily doing the right things along the way, but they're always good lessons. I always say that, you learn stuff. I think at the beginning,

I would have said leadership is all about me. Like I think I would have said that if you'd asked Sarah 10 years ago, 10, well, it's about me. That's what I realise now. It's actually, it's not about me. It's definitely about something bigger. And I'm just one part of that puzzle, sort of putting it all together. And certainly as a leader, your ability to work with others and get on with others and really actually just be a likable, good, decent person with integrity to help get stuff done is fundamentally important.

I probably came a little bit through that era, Digby too, of I thought leadership was the woman in the corner office with the shoulder pads on and the high heels and power-up tits. That probably was the era of what I was looking up to. And then you get there and you're like, okay, it's not actually, it's not really anything like that at all. Thank goodness.

Digby Scott (: 38:47

You know, it's interesting, right? You said I got a lot of early opportunities to lead. I think those opportunities are everywhere. And I've, I've got this little theory in my head that because you cultivated a sense of purpose, because you'd had a second shot at a good life. Right. And I suspect that happened quite early, that awareness that those opportunities weren't just there, but you grabbed them. You leaned in because of this sense of.

No, this matters. I want to make a difference. Now that's a theory. How accurate am I with that?

Sarah Manley (: 39:20

think it's very true. I think it's very real. I don't know, I guess the second part to that is I don't know why some people are like that and some people aren't, but I actually remember being a very young girl. We went on a school trip to the zoo. And I remember when we were coming back from the zoo, I walked up to the teacher who was sitting at the front of the bus and said, can I please write a story for the school newsletter about the zoo trip? And the teacher was like, oh, do you want to? And I'm like, yeah, I want to share.

with everyone what I thought of the zoo. I don't know where the idea came from. The teacher was like, yeah, we'd love that. So I remember I sat down diligently and I wrote a little story and it got printed in the school newspaper, Sarah. But then I just became that person then that was like, let this thing happen at school. Let's create a club. Let's create a committee. Let's create a group of people. To be honest, I don't know where any of that came from, but I always saw opportunities or I saw spaces where I could see an opportunity open.

And I always wanted to be in that space.

Digby Scott (: 40:21

Yeah, and I suspect that will carry on. I love it. If you were giving advice to younger people looking to lead, what advice would you give them around how to discern that sense of purpose? What practical things can someone do in their 20s or 30s, say, or maybe even older or maybe younger? What do do to kind of tap into that?

Sarah Manley (: 40:49

you have to go out and look for different opportunities to be involved in the areas that you have an interest in. Because even in that process, you will find these things within there that actually aren't you or that you don't like. every time that happens, it creates even more of a sense of who you are. Because when you have an experience, you're like, actually, I didn't enjoy that. Or actually,

I went and volunteered for blah, blah. I turned up at this organisation. I thought it was really cool, but actually I did a volunteer shift there for a few weeks and I really didn't like it. It wasn't me. That's fine. That's okay. That doesn't mean that you don't have purpose or your purpose was incorrect. It just means that there was something there that wasn't for you. So I think you've got to get out and meet different people, reach out to different organisations. And this is a hard thing because I think when you're young, if I'm honest, you're still trying to find out who you are, is it?

as a person. So I always say, you know, like being confident in who you are and the value you can bring to the table. Stand in that, stand in that really firmly and be like, actually, I am clever and I am smart and I've got these things to offer and I really want to contribute in some way and not to be shy about saying those things. There'll be others that will say, you know, they don't like that sort of attitude and young people. I think no matter what age you are, no matter where you are in life, when you're trying to work out who you are, just

Bring the best of yourself to the table. It doesn't have to be perfect, but you will have something that is worthy of contribution, that is worthy of more.

Digby Scott (: 42:14

Yeah. And reminding yourself of that. So the exercise I do is in the change makers book, which is a lifeline review, which is you sort of draw a horizontal line on a piece of paper and on the left hand side, you draw a vertical line. So you kind of like the vertical line has been split by the horizontal half way and you just plot, you go back over your life and you go well above the line of the highlights, like the great experiences or times that I had. And then

below the line are the lowlights. What are the times that weren't great for me? And then asking the question, sort of then, you put these little Xs or dots, you know, just over a timeline. And then you just draw them, you join them with a line together. You sort of have this lifeline. And then you ask the question, what was going on for me with the highlights? And what were the common things that I was doing? Maybe it was the places I was in and the people that I was around.

What do they have in common? And then you do the same with the lowlights, but the question is what was missing? Yeah. And from there you get a sense of, I'm at my best and I'm making a difference when these things are present. And then from there it's like, okay, more of that, please. How do I bring more of that into my world? And it also gives you a sense of what gives you most meaning. Yes. And I think when you can lock into that stuff,

Then you can show up and go, all right, this is how I add value. This is who I am when I'm at best. Whenever I've done that for myself, particularly in dark times, it's just reminded me of, yeah, I know, I've got stuff to give.

Sarah Manley (: 43:54

Has that failed you ever?

Digby Scott (: 43:56

I don't know it's failed me. It's more of it informs me. I don't think it's the truth. It's more, here's a way of reminding myself. And what I'm actually trying to get is not a head answer, but again, coming back to gut. It's like reminding myself of that first time when I did Camp America and I ended up discovering that I was a real leader. And that was a really early thing for me to learn.

But when I reflect on a particular time, I remember we were playing basketball or something and I just ended up, it was like the first day and we, there's all these people who didn't know each other. And I just noticed that they were gravitating around me for some reason as we were teaming. And I'm like, what's going on here? And I still feel that in my gut now. It's like, oh, I bring something magnetic to certain situations and I now own that.

You know, and it's like that helps serve me. Yes. I don't know if it's failed me. I think it informs me and reminds me again, it's the foundation to operate from as a leader. This has been fascinating. I'm wondering about other topics we haven't touched on that you'd love to dig into for a little bit.

Sarah Manley (: 45:12

quite interested because I, and I had mentioned this to you, I'd sort of been lurking around a little bit on your LinkedIn page for a while. So when we did connect, I was sort of like, my goodness, wow, this is really amazing. And you have this, you do have this definitely magnetic ability to connect with others and create spaces to have really important conversations. Of all those conversations you've had, what's...

the most important thing you've learnt about yourself from a conversation with someone else.

Digby Scott (: 45:43

That's a big question. don't know if I've ever been asked that before. What's the most important thing I've learned about myself?

Sarah Manley (: 45:49

about yourself, but through talking with someone else, having a conversation with someone else.

Digby Scott (: 45:55

I have a stab at that.

that are more powerful than I realise. I think for a lot of years I played small. Yeah. And I think that smaller me still shows up every now and then, but I recognize a lot faster. People that see me, know me, remind me of the impact that I have. It's usually in the Changemakers book. The first line is you cannot not impact.

Yeah. You will have an impact and I'm almost writing that to myself. Yeah. And I remember working with a counselor who was years and years ago. He, you know, I was just going to work, try and myself out. I think I was in my thirties and he was very blunt. He's this grumpy old guy. Yeah. He walked with a cane and he said to me, geez, you, talk yourself down.

When you walk in this room, you have an impact. And I've had that, those conversations a number of times when people have said, you're like a barometer, right? You know, like when you're down, the room is down. When you're up, the room lifts. Thanks for asking me the question. It's nice to be asked.

Sarah Manley (: 47:13

Yeah, I just genuinely wondered because I think, I guess the second part to that is, and this is the nosy people always talk about, oh, you know, I'm curious. like, oh, I'm just nosy. Are you the sort of person that sort of sits in a, could you sit in a cafe and people watch all day? Are you that kind of, yeah.

Digby Scott (: 47:28

Yeah. And actually I probably do more than watch. probably go and talk to a few of them. You know, it's funny actually when I've done that, you know, discerningly, it's fascinating the conversations that you can have and, know, just being curious about other people. People love to be seen, don't they? So I feel seen by you right now, by you asking me these questions. Thank you.

Sarah Manley (: 47:52

No, it's completely my pleasure. think I would love to sit in a cafe with you and we could just drink coffee and like people do stories. And because I also make up stories about, my goodness, I think, which is a terrible thing to do. you know, it's just using that analogy and but also that people actually want to be seen. This week I was mum help on one of my son's school excursions. I'm a little bit ashamed to admit this, but I'm speaking honestly. There's been a woman who we usually pull into the school car park around the same time.

We've never really talked, we've sort of given each other the odd wave, but not really. And in my head, I had sort of put her in a box. There was something about her driving that slightly annoyed me because she's quite slow and cautious in the car park, which by the way, everybody should be. I said, she's doing the right thing, but sometimes I'm just like, you know, I'm like, can you just speed up just like a tad? Like, come on people, we've got places to go. There's no kids around, isn't it? You know, and I'm just like,

annoying, frustrating, like I feel like this woman's frustrating. Never spoken to her, right? And then she was part of the parent help on Wednesday and she was coming specifically because her son, and I'd never actually seen exactly what child she was picking up because I'd seen different people get into her car. I wasn't, you know, she was coming because her son is autistic and as usual school support person wasn't able to be there today. So she'd taken the day off work.

to come and be with him so he could participate with the other kids. And I got to spend quite a bit of time with her because she was in the group that my son was in too. And she was just the most amazing woman who had this beautiful story about coming out from the Philippines and how she's setting up life in New Zealand. And I loved hearing her talk. I loved watching her engagement with her son and just thinking, my goodness, Sarah, you have no idea how lucky you are to have the life you have.

And also, know, but just with that, Sarah, you made all these assumptions about this woman based on how she was driving in the car park. And you had no idea there was this depth and there was this story and there was all these things going on for this woman. But you took the time to talk and listen and wow, what a great, and you know, I'm like, now I want to run into the car park to her today.

I want to go up and say to her, I so enjoyed meeting you and I so enjoyed meeting your son and I hope we get to do a few more Mum things during the year. Everyone has a story.

Digby Scott (: 50:21

I love that. Everyone

has a story that we don't know about. Yep. And we'll probably never know the full story. Man, we don't even know our own stories after time. true. But that curiosity and the connection that came from that curiosity, that's an incredible story. Thank you. Talking about a pleasure to meet, I've really loved this conversation. Beautiful and warm and exploratory and exactly how I hope to dig deeper.

Sarah Manley (: 50:43

me too, Jack B.

Digby Scott (: 50:49

conversations to be. So yeah, we've gone deep. What have you learned or been reminded of during this conversation?

Sarah Manley (: 50:58

that we all can make impact and that we have impact. So that spoke very strongly to me when you talked about that. I loved your talking about the different diagrams and visual tools you're using, because even when you talked about when I gave the CEO being lonely and you sort of the triangle and the pinchy point, I was like, actually when I journal, sometimes when I have a pinchy point moment, I want to unpack that a little bit. So I think though Digby, really, if anything, you just continue to reignite.

For me, why I do what I do and why love meeting new people, that's the power. And also our shirts are fabulous. It was meant to be.

Digby Scott (: 51:37

those

listening and not watching before we started recording, Sarah's wearing this beautiful, flowery, bright, vibrant top and I was wearing a black t-shirt. And I said, I think I need to level up my outfit. So I rushed off and I got a Hawaiian shirt, a bit like Rick from season three of White Lotus. And I'm wearing that now. So we're looking pretty funky and cool and colorful. It's been great. Sarah, how can

People, if they wanted to track you down, find you online, where would they go?

Sarah Manley (: 52:10

easiest person in the world to find. the best place to go and look for me is LinkedIn. Sarah Manley, you'll find me there. I'm in bright pink. You can't miss me. But I am also on Instagram and Facebook, if that's your thing. But LinkedIn is probably best. And I'm also at Sarah at jkfoundation.org.nz. Love connecting with people and love meeting new people. So yeah, would love to hear from others.

Digby Scott (: 52:35

Wonderful. And that's for the spelling is M-A-N-L-E-Y. Correct. Sarah, it's been awesome. Thank you so much. We'll see you soon.

Sarah Manley (: 52:44

Thank you.

Digby Scott (: 52:51

After this conversation with Sarah, I'm reflecting on her sense of self-belief that she's built, she's earned, she's claimed during her time on this planet. But also she hasn't done alone. Others are so important to help you, remind you of who you are and as a leader, as a human, and the importance of bringing in others to be vulnerable and to ask for their help.

because as she said, people love to help. That's something that I'm really struck with from this conversation. What about you? I'm curious about what's still resonating. What has it you thinking? Maybe what might you go and do or try? A couple of tools that you might find useful. One is the Bigger Me tool that I mentioned in the conversation. I'll put a link.

that in the show notes as well as another tool I've developed called the network leadership diagnostic which helps you get a sense of who are the sort of people that you need in your network and who do you already have and how do you leverage those relationships in a mutually beneficial way. It's a really useful tool one of the most popular tools that I have developed. You'd also might like to listen to episode 15 with Hazel McLaurin.

where we talk about the value of mentorship. think it's a really lovely link and complimentary episode to this one. I would love it if you could like and subscribe to the podcast in your favorite app. And ideally, I'd love it if you could give us a review too. And that just helps spread the word even further. For now, this is Dig Deeper. I'm Digby Scott. Go well, and we will see you next time.