15. The Value of Mentorship, Embracing Nuance, and Finding Your Red Thread | Hazel Maclaurin

Digby (: 00:01

My guest today is Hazel Maclaurin. Like most interesting and fascinating people, it's hard to put Hazel in a box, but here's just a few of the hats she's worn in her time. So there's a, she's been a musician, a poet, a digital marketing specialist, a strategic HR content strategist, and she's a committed mother. And she's got a master's degree in English and has had a stellar corporate career working for a plethora of organisations, including Korn Ferry as the global content manager for enterprise and thought leadership. And Hazel's professional role right now comes, well, she's a self-employed strategic HR content expert. Let's unpack what that means, I reckon. And I suspect the essence of this comes from her love of language and ability to craft words that have impact. And this testament to this, her works won more than 20 awards.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 00:42

Yeah.

Digby (: 00:56

She's passionate and a deeply interesting human. And I'm so pleased we're talking today. Hazel, welcome to the show.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 01:03

Diggby, thank you for that welcome. Thank you for having me. It's amazing to be here.

Digby (: 01:10

We've met in person once. Where you are now. Tell us where are you right now?

Hazel Maclaurin (: 01:13

Yep.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 01:17

Yeah, I am in London, UK, South East London. I have behind me a picture of the Scottish Highlands. That's my husband's happy place. Not London, he reminds me all the time. So, and I'm just sitting here in my kitchen diner at 10 to nine UK evening time talking to you. And it is such a pleasure. really.

Digby (: 01:29

Aha!

Digby (: 01:43

I love your commitment. It's awesome. now that that's interesting, right? Because that picture is almost like if you were to find two, you couldn't find two more different places than London, the Scottish islands. That's really interesting. What does that picture mean to you? Not your husband. What's that about for you? Okay.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 01:54

Right, yeah exactly.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 02:02

Well, it's a calendar, so it changes every month. So two things, there's two practical things it means to me. One is just being a calendar. Second, it's above our radiator in the house, so we can tell when the heating's on, whether the pages move. Third is, the more meaningful one is like, I...

Like so, like a lot of people, I have a little bit of Scottish heritage. I know you and I were talking before the show and you do too. My husband is both his parents are from Scotland and moved to England just before having him and he's the youngest of three. And this reminds me of like how important his heritage is to him. And it makes me really want to

honor that link, not just because of, you know, because he's my husband and I want to support him that, also because we, as you mentioned, I'm a mom, I have two daughters and I want to honor that for them as well. And yeah, so I think, I think it's a really nice reminder actually, like weirdly I, so I grew up in Southeast London. I actually now live on a street that my own mother lived on when she was 11 to like, yeah.

was not intentional at all. So there's been five generations of women living on my street from my family, but we also have this connection to, as you say, an incredibly different part of the United Kingdom. It's a good reminder.

Digby (: 03:41

Yeah, which I love that, you know, being in Australia and living in New Zealand, there's this sort of, wow, you know, I can I can have different places that shape me. Right. And yeah. And I'm also hearing in just what you just described, you're honoring your heritage by staying in the same space for five generations. That's amazing.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 03:46

Yeah.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 03:52

Yeah.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 03:56

Yeah.

Yeah, it's like I said, was not intentional. We ended up moving here about 18 months ago, just is what it is, right?

Digby (: 04:08

Yeah. Yeah. The universe will do what it does. Absolutely. Yeah. Before we jumped into press record, we were talking about a little bit like, what do we want to talk about? And one of the things that I thought we could kind of move into early is the value of mentoring. I, as I was doing research for the conversation, there was something you have on your website around how you've been mentored.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 04:11

It does,

Hazel Maclaurin (: 04:20

Mm-hmm.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 04:24

Yeah.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 04:37

Yeah.

Digby (: 04:38

Tell us a little bit about that experience and who that person was and how that came to be. I'm super curious about the value of mentoring from what your perspective is.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 04:41

Mm.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 04:51

Great. So that's a great question. I think for me, well, let's take it a step back. I mean, we're all learning all the time, right? Like, you know, learning doesn't stop at school or when you've, if you get a qualification or you go and learn on the job, right. And in fact, you, I mean, you know, if you're hired into an organisation, they expect you to be learning.

as you kind of continue in your career. Like if you're not continuing to learn, there's maybe a little bit of an issue there. And I think what mentoring has done for me personally, and I would hazard a guess that, you know, I think many people could relate to this is what it has done for me personally is it's just the value of having other perspectives, other...

more experienced perspectives to bring to bear on the issues that you yourself are struggling with, which might be unfamiliar to you. So the particular mentor that I name check on my website is I had the incredible, incredible privilege of being mentored and coached by Bob Safian, Robert Safian, who was, I believe, a managing editor at Fortune. And then he went and became

years between: 2007

you know, a few years ago would have been universally lauded and maybe now it's slightly more complex. Like, so he was the first, is it, know, like of Bob's like, you know, you know, great kind of moves, if you like, was he was the first person to put Mark Zuckerberg on the cover of magazine, like a business magazine and, you know, and so that kind of stuff. So.

Digby (: 06:50

That's diplomatic of you, yeah.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 07:11

That was an incredible privilege and it was also an incredibly, it happened at like an incredibly sensitive and vulnerable time for me as well because I first met Bob when I went into an organisation called Project Management Institute and he was doing, I'd just been brought in because they were doing a

big digital transformation and my specialism is digital content. And he was asked to come in and just, you know, give his views on some things. obviously he's seen a lot of transformations. He's seen a lot of incredible organisations and he's seen a lot of incredible leadership and has got a really interesting bird's eye view on how different

on how digital and how different leadership styles and things can bring certain goals into fruition, right? But it was a sensitive time for me because I had deliberately gone to that organisation because I wanted to get to a certain place in my career. I then got the opportunity to get to that place. I wanted to be a head of content.

I found out five days after I was off the role that I was expecting and was expecting a baby. And so I was suddenly like, Oh my God, all my professional dreams are coming to fruition. But like, know, this. Right. I know it was so annoying. was finally, eligible on my company's

Digby (: 08:40

Digby (08:51.426)

The universe does interesting things.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 09:03

policies to travel business class and I couldn't drink the champagne. Obviously that wasn't my biggest concern but it was a bit annoying.

Digby (: 09:08

Ha

Digby (: 09:15

Classic. What? There's so many questions about this. What do you think...

Hazel Maclaurin (: 09:19

Yeah, including priorities like right, right. Why are you thinking about the champagne?

Digby (: 09:26

I know I would be thinking about that too. Especially if it's free and I'll offer you. I'm curious about what, if you had to make an answer up, what did Bob see in you for him to say yes to mentoring you?

Hazel Maclaurin (: 09:31

Right, exactly.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 09:44

That's a great question. wish he was here and I wish I could answer authentically. I mean, the first thing I will say for which I'm not trying to sidestep your question, but Bob is a very generous man and he wasn't the only person he mentored in that organisation. He mentored others as well. He, but what I would like to think he saw.

me was someone who was equally as passionate about storytelling and the power of storytelling and the power of storytelling to change, to evoke change. I would like to think that that is what he saw. And he gave me some really, really constructive and tough feedback.

over the course of it. had this whole idea about how we should have an enterprise wide content strategy. We should know what was going on, blah, blah, blah. And one of the things he said to me is it's appropriate that that idea, Hazel is appropriate and is valid and it is completely unrealistic. And I was like, wow, that was like, that was really refreshing. Like it was, you know, it was a bit, but I'm like, this is someone who I

really respect, you know, and not just because of everything that he's done in his career, but also because we at this point, we have a bit of a mental mentee relationship now. But like, if he's taking that, it's like, okay, saying that for a really good reason. He's, he's walked a similar path. He's, you know, I would be, I ended up leading a team of four managers and

Digby (: 11:25

Mm.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 11:38

We had something like 30 headcount kind of below them and we had a lot of open rolls to fill and I was building a team consolidating a team in Philadelphia, but also setting up an office in London and It was just absolutely invaluable to have a mentor to be able to go. Do you know what? I'm doing all this stuff and suddenly everything's got a bit lonelier because I've had this promotion that there are just few as I

plus, you know, all of this kind of, and actually just to be able to speak to someone who has trodden that path, who has dealt with many of the same issues, and who's like at the other end of it, and just to be able to say, do you know what? It's gonna be okay. Or even just by them being there, it demonstrates that it can be okay, right? Because they have walked the path already.

Digby (: 12:35

Yeah. Yeah, they've come through the other side of something similar and there's lessons to learn, which makes me curious about. So that was a while ago. What lessons reverberate now still today that you live by?

Hazel Maclaurin (: 12:40

Yeah. Yeah.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 12:51

from that particular mentorship.

That'll take a little more.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 13:00

One thing that he taught me that definitely still resonates is distinguishing between what is signal and what is noise. the organisation I worked for had a very rich heritage in project management, as you would assume it would, and it...

And it was the structure was maybe a little bit unusual. So it meant that you would often have experts in the organisation, but it would be like one or two. And then there would be these projects and you would be expected to lend your expertise to every single one. And I'm going to talk as well about another kind of like unwitting mentor, actually, who is another leader in the organisation that I really, really admired.

And the thing that Bob used to say to me, the thing that this leader used to do is, like, you know, just be very, very picky about like the meetings that you go to, and you don't have to accept every invitation and understand what is adding value and what isn't, and understand where you can add value and where you can't.

or and understand as well. I think this is a really great thing by any leaders should be thinking about is where, are the opportunities for me to take a step back so that members of my team can shine and deliver what they do? Right? Well, I mean, you know, I think any leader, would hope like, I mean, the people around me, I was so smart. There are so many like the person who

Digby (: 14:41

love that.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 14:54

covered me when I was on maternity leave as a video and podcast expert. I'm a broad spectrum content strategist, but I don't have detailed expertise in those areas. And anything to that, I'd be like, yeah, you need to talk to Dan. He's the expert, not me. Right?

Digby (: 15:12

It speaks a lot to ego or the dialing down of it. know, this idea of hero or host, you know, what's driving you and to host some the space for someone else to shine is what I hear in you is that's your one of your drivers. And I love this question about where you can add value and where you can't, because it it speaks to

Hazel Maclaurin (: 15:20

Yeah.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 15:24

Mmm.

Digby (: 15:41

me to two things. One is the, well, you got to know what your, your superpowers are. And, and then the other one is, not just we add their bit, we want to add value, you know, because there's something about the motivation here. Right. And I want to link that to what you said earlier about, and you were passionate when you said it, your, your passion.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 15:47

Yeah. Yeah.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 15:59

Yeah.

Digby (: 16:08

about the power of storytelling to evoke change. Right. And so there's this you there's this Hazel that's like, this is what I'm about. But I suspect that wasn't always the case when you were a little kid. Right. There was I'm curious if we can go to. So where does that come from? Now, what's that about?

Hazel Maclaurin (: 16:10

Mmm.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 16:18

Yes.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 16:29

That is such an interesting question, but...

In order to excavate my way to the answer, because I don't have it off of mind, right? But I do want to get that. I think what, yeah, let's dig, let's dig deeper, right? So I, I love how you've just put that back to me, like that storytelling for power to change.

Digby (: 16:44

Okay, let's dig. We're digging deeper.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 16:59

Because actually, if I look back at all of the different things that I have done, so like for musician, I was a singer-songwriter, I was really single and I was very involved in that world for a long time.

My motivation there was to connect with people and evoke change. And actually I've met a lot of musicians and I think that is a similar motivation. I've met a lot of journalists and that's their motivation as well. It's people who are passionate about something changing and they're like, what tools do I have at my disposal? it's like, you know, using stories and art of whatever, whatever kind of ilk to connect with people.

So where does that come from? Really good question. think... Well, I don't know who you think we are. I'm kind of...

Almost going to reflect that back to you, which I'm sorry, we're not really in the spirit of the podcast, but I just, you know, I kind of wondered, does it end? Do you have like a pivot to where you're like, boom, this is it? Or is it more accumulation?

Digby (: 18:02

What?

Digby (: 18:09

Cool. Yeah.

So there's a couple of ways we can go, right? I could, what you got me thinking is I think most leaders, most effective and really good leaders have that in a drive to create change. Cause I think, you know, in some ways that might be the difference between leadership and management, you know, from a what, how do you wearing managing is sort of like just keeping things moving along efficiently. So you can be effective on something, but

Hazel Maclaurin (: 18:21

Mm.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 18:27

Yeah.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 18:33

Hmm.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 18:41

Yeah.

Digby (: 18:41

the leadership is going into the unknown and creating something new. Right. And the leading bid is mobilizing others. The word use was connecting with others. And I think a lot of my work is about what are you standing for? You know, asking that question and to know the genesis of that, I think is. It can be really helpful to a point, I think you don't want to.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 18:45

Yes.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 18:51

Yeah.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 18:57

Yeah.

Digby (: 19:09

you know, analyze it to death. But there's something about how do you put language around that that has meaning, which comes from the past. We started a conversation with honoring your heritage. And there's something about honoring the lesson. So for me, one of the Genesis stories, this might be buying you some time. One of the Genesis stories for me was when I was in my.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 19:18

Yeah.

Digby (: 19:33

early 30s, I was the national manager for a recruitment company here in New Zealand. I've lived here twice and that was the first time I was in over my head. I had no idea what I was doing. I was very good at recruiting and sales, but I had no idea how to lead teams and run a P &L and all that stuff. And I burned out. I'd also been thinking, oh, you know, I know this is the career for me long term.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 19:35

Yeah, right. Yeah, okay.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 19:44

Hmm.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 19:58

Yeah, gotcha.

Digby (: 19:58

I burned out really big time because I was just so stretched, so thin and saying yes to everything, not knowing where I could be at the best value, not really knowing who I was. And it led me to quite a big period of time off where I was reflecting, you know what? I'm much more interested in not the transactional part of plunking people into jobs, but the conversations about the longer term development of potential.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 20:04

Yeah.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 20:08

Yeah.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 20:21

Leah.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 20:27

Yeah.

Digby (: 20:27

And both for the individuals, but also for the organisational environment in which those individuals are in. So, yeah.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 20:33

I love that. So you are connecting the individual plus to the organisation.

Digby (: 20:37

Yeah, yeah. And that that comes from my dad is a businessman. My mom is very empathetic and spiritual. And those two things is perfectly married. I can tell that story easily. And this is the link to storytelling because I've done that reflection and sense making. And it was a horrible time my life, but the sense making I did during and after that period, there was this.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 20:46

Yeah.

Yes, yes.

Digby (: 21:03

Yeah, this is much more who I am and this is how I can add value. And I'm still doing it 25 years later. You know, so to me, there's, you know, there's been various guises of it, but there's there's a red thread all the way through, which comes from that realization back then. Yeah. So it's sort of honoring honoring where that comes from from my parents, but also really going. This is just what lights me up. Yeah. And I noticed that in your language, there's this

Hazel Maclaurin (: 21:06

Yeah.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 21:09

Yeah, it's amazing.

Yeah.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 21:17

Yes. Yes. Yes.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 21:32

Yes.

Digby (: 21:33

passion for the power storytelling to create change, man, just to kind of be able to go. Yeah. And it started here. OK, hands up. Has a hand up. You can't see this. She wants that. She's got a question.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 21:41

Raise my hand. Yeah. Yeah, I do. have because I think I can hear both my husband playing the football too loudly and a child crying and he is supposed to be dealing with him. So can I go and shout at him and just give me a moment. Sorry, because.

Digby (: 21:54

We can pause if you like. All good. No problems. No worries. All good.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 22:03

Alright.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 22:17

so sorry, you're late.

Digby (: 22:19

You know, the good thing about this is that we have an editor who can cut all this stuff out.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 22:24

Yes, thank god for that. Sorry, Ed. I'm really sorry. That is the thing, like once you're a mom, once you're a parent, like, you know, you can't un-hear it. It's like, I was like, this is amazing. Sense me, I get it. But I was like, I can hear that. I can hear your TV is on. I can hear her screaming. And all of those things are wrong right now.

Digby (: 22:35

Yeah, yeah, now I get it. Yeah.

Digby (: 22:45

And you're right, it gets buzzes around like a fly in your head, right? And so that speaks to your professionalism. it's no, you know, it's awesome. So I've just made a note. All right, we'll cut that out, but we're back now. all right. So we're back. Yeah, we're back. We are talking about what I'm curious about is what's your sense of where this conviction come from? Yeah.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 22:49

Yeah.

Yeah.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 22:59

So, yeah.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 23:07

The Genesis.

that is such a great question. And I think so I don't know if this is still gonna be in the podcast, but we've just had a really great chat about where it is for you. And I don't think I can point to necessarily a single, a single moment. But I think I've always had this sense.

even from quite a young age. Like I was like the typical book nerd, the typical like, you know, exactly who you think goes into it does two English degrees is, you know, like just just living books and stuff. And I think for me, there was a realisation quite early on that people were using words to elicit change. And there was a realisation that like

that also that it's not just words, but it's also knowledge transfer. that I saw a great thing the other night, you know, writing is a conduit between minds, right? And so that is a way of changing your perspectives and evoking change, right? I don't know if you've seen the Netflix series, which has been created by books.

Digby (: 24:18

Yes, love that.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 24:37

Sorry, please edit this bit out, but I can hear my youngest child is completely inconsolable because it's her daddy's concert and I'm just really glad it's not my problem. We can have this great conversation instead. I'm so glad. my God, absolutely. I'm like, yes, I am so here for this conversation. I am not there for that, literally and metaphorically.

Digby (: 24:51

I love the realness here.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 25:03

I know if you've seen the it's called Three Body Problem and it's based on the novels of I'm not going to even attempt to pronounce his name, but a Chinese author. within that story, headline, spoiler alert, for anyone who hasn't seen it, it's basically about an alien invasion. And one of the things that prompts one of the protagonists who

invite the aliens to invade is that she has been through the Chinese Cultural Revolution, she's seen her parents be destroyed by this and she also is given when she's kind of put away to some labour camp she is surreptitiously given a copy of Silent Spring by Rachel Carson.

which was the text in the 70s that identified how pesticides were building up in the food chain and how that was causing huge issues with nature and it was poisoning far more than the pests that it was meant to control, right? And I think that's a very powerful story within a story. was actually like,

Like she reads that and she realizes that she kind of goes, using pesticides, that to me seems really neutral as an act, but actually it has this huge impact. And that very much times with what she has experienced seeing her parents being destroyed by what is happening around her, you know, around her in her life. So yeah, I think that.

Digby (: 26:38

huh.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 26:55

That's a more recent example from, but it's that, I think, I think if you have grown up, always spent a long time with books and love books, like, and stories and all those things, like, that's what lot of stories are about, right? They're about change, whether it's, whether it's a character that goes through something and changes, whether it's a character trying to enact change on the world.

Digby (: 26:57

Yes.

Digby (: 27:15

Yes. Yes.

Digby (: 27:24

The hero's journey, right? It's the. Yeah, it's it's in any or most popular stories, some version of the hero's journey, you know, the the beginning, the transformation and then the returns of the stuff and that that's it. You know, there's your love of language is really clear just in the way you seem to think about what I want to say. What's the word?

Hazel Maclaurin (: 27:26

Quite literally, yes.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 27:33

Right, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 27:40

Yeah, yeah.

Digby (: 27:54

As before we press record, you mentioned the word, the idea of nuance and the importance of nuance, particularly in the world we see today where nuance seems to be lacking in so many quarters. Why? Tell us about nuance and why it matters.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 27:59

Yeah.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 28:07

Yeah.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 28:14

Well, I just want to go back to your first question actually on that because I think this is something that I've really gained from having mentors, not just Bob Safian, but I've been very fortunate to bring in other mentors. actually when I was very serious about pursuing my music career, that was actually some career advice that was given to me. It's like find mentors, find others who've trodden the path because they help you give that nuance. They literally bring in other perspectives.

I think that, you know, human beings, we're all really complicated, right? We are a bunch of different motivations. We don't even know what they are, right? Like, I mean, I've just really struggled to answer that question. And I think I'm probably going to go away and think about it. I'll be like, actually, it was a certain thing that happened when I was eight years old. I was like, boom, this is what I would do, you know, and I'll probably write you an email and come back to you on that. But it's...

Digby (: 28:58

Yeah.

Digby (: 29:12

Awesome.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 29:13

You know, there's, we don't always know, right, what it is that shapes or drives us. And I think that particularly, certainly something I've experienced in my career has been examples of where like maybe my drivers have not come from.

such a positive place. They'd be more about like moving away from something than moving towards something, right?

Digby (: 29:47

Do you want to tell us, give us an example of that?

Hazel Maclaurin (: 29:49

Yeah, sure. I'm sure. I'm sorry, because we're going away from nuance now and I will come back to it.

Digby (: 29:55

I know we will be nuanced about it. We'll come back.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 29:58

I that. So for example, I have, as you kind of alluded to at the beginning, I've worn a lot of different hats. I've been, and actually there's a few more that I'm going to throw in the ring because we didn't talk about them. I've been a salesperson. I've been, I've sold everything from like medical insurance to pianos. I've, I'm.

a failed academic, like that's why I did my master's degree. I originally wanted to be a university lecturer and then I realised I'm not self funding myself through a doctorate, that's just not going to happen. I have been, I've worked in marketing, I've worked in music, I've been a poet who's gone into schools. I spent one week like sitting at the end of a cupboard that someone had made into like a magical mystery thing like.

and then reading stories to the children I know about. So it's been a very, very squiggly career. And I've also worked in global marketing teams. I've worked on, you know, half billion dollar acquisitions, and I've been in charge of big budgets and big teams and done global content strategies. So very, very, very squiggly.

Digby (: 31:20

Just a quick side note, have you read the book Range by David Epstein?

Hazel Maclaurin (: 31:25

no, I haven't, but someone put that in front of me this week. So I feel like this is a little sign from the universe saying like, read that.

Digby (: 31:29

Yeah, good timing.

Yeah. So for anyone who hasn't heard of this book, it's essentially the subtitle is why generalists will triumph in a specialized world. And the idea that you want to get as much of range of possible, and this is advice I give to my kids, you know, particularly in the first half of your life, like I think all of your life, to be honest, go and range widely because your brain wiring

Hazel Maclaurin (: 31:51

Yeah.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 31:55

Yeah.

Digby (: 32:01

It evolves in a different way than if you deeply specialize in one thing. And I think you can join, join more dots and adapt to new situations more quickly because you've seen and had to adapt to new situations. And I think it's a superpower. Actually at dinner last night with some friends, we were saying about the importance of developing adaptive capacity. Yeah. It's a bit of a highfalutin term, right?

Hazel Maclaurin (: 32:05

Yeah.

Yes!

Hazel Maclaurin (: 32:15

Yeah.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 32:26

I love that. I haven't heard that before. That's great.

Digby (: 32:28

Yeah, which to me, your career, just I mean, the way you've just added on another 20 bullet points to what you've done. There's something about that. Your ability, you know, I can imagine talking even a year's time, Hazel, and, you know, OK, what's what's another hat you've got now? Right. This. But but I also suspect it helps you. Be unique, you know, coming back to how do I uniquely add value?

Hazel Maclaurin (: 32:46

Yeah

Hazel Maclaurin (: 32:57

Yeah. You.

Digby (: 32:58

There's something really like just that range. I just wanted to mark that because, you know, lots of us have squiggly careers. Yours is yours is really I don't know what. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like hyper squiggly. Anyway, we you were going you were going with that. And then I said sidebar range.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 33:07

Yeah.

Mine is like, you know, it's like a pinball machine. It's yeah.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 33:21

We were going with that, we were going with nuance and then we were going with like, what does it mean to move away from something versus move towards something? And so an example of that I can give is actually when I was in the job I had before I had my first child, where I was a head of content, like global head of content, had like a really big remit. And if I am truly honest,

Digby (: 33:27

Mm-hmm.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 33:51

That was about being like, have to get to a certain level and I have to, like, you know, I really know my stuff. It's my digital marketing and content career were the things that I did as like my day job when I was a musician. So I had actually genuinely been doing it for a really long time. And I was like, I can add loads of value here. And I feel like I'm an expert here. And you know, obviously what happened as soon as I got into a bigger role was

I was like, my God, you know, what got me here will not get me further. And I have to eat some serious humble pie and do a lot of learning here right now. But also I'm expected to be this leader that's supposed to have all the answers. And there's a lot of people looking to me to help them navigate like really what was a very, very, it was kind of a scary world. The scary is the word I'm going to use because there was so much change.

Digby (: 34:47

What was scary and what was that fear about?

Hazel Maclaurin (: 34:48

for no reason.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 34:52

I think the fear was, I think...

I think if I look at fear in general, for the people, I think it was like, just, no one really, no one was aligned. There was a big vision, but there was no ladder connecting what you did on the day to day up to that vision. And we just kind of sounded like.

Like, almost like fantasy is kind of what I'm going to say, which is a bit harsh, but it was just, it wasn't clear how you were going to get from here to there. And I think a lot of us who've worked in the corporate world, we can be familiar with the idea of like organisational transformations. And in general, I think they're a really good thing. you know, there's, there's, well, do I think it's a good thing? I'm going to go back a step. I think that

to use your phrase adaptive capacity. If people in general have that ability to be agile, that's another way we would put it, to adapt and to particularly at the moment, just the world we are in, it does not stay still. And I know we all say that, it's, I mean, really, we're recording this on March the 1st and there's been some very, very big, potentially very significant changes in the fabric of

geopolitics in the last 24 hours. I think contrasting that what was scary about that time, we didn't know where there was a vision, but we didn't know how we were going to get there and therefore it fell out of reach. Right? Does that answer your question?

Digby (: 36:46

Yep. Yeah. Well, I think so. I'm I want to bring it back to the idea of nuance that this. There's something about the black and whiteness of even. And I'm coming back to the words of your mentor saying that's completely unrealistic. I'm thinking about alignment, right? And everyone having this direct line to the vision and all that sort of stuff, I think that is kind of unrealistic, too. If you overcomplicate it.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 36:53

Yeah.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 37:05

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, agreed.

Digby (: 37:15

but there can be some shades of gray where you can go, Oh yeah, no, I've got enough of that. know, plus, plus I enjoy the people I work with and that's actually, that's really good. And I feel like I've done really helpful work. Right. And so that can't be all bad, but that's maybe an example of nuance, but you, said to me that nuance is important and, and this idea of being a grownup, what, what, what's that about? Like, why, why do we need nuance?

Hazel Maclaurin (: 37:21

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 37:34

Mm.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 37:38

Yes.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 37:41

I think so.

So as I mentioned earlier, I have young children and one of them in particular is incredibly black and white in her thinking. I like to say she's a 93 year old in a three year old's body. That's no disrespect for 93 year olds, but like she literally has, if I can say, she has zero fucks to give. She does not care. She just, you know, she knows what she wants and you know, she doesn't care about like what the rest of your world is just like.

her way or the highway and her view is very absolute. And she's also very sweet and loving and caring and actually a very easy, like easy kind of personality, right? But she does have like, she has these black and white red lines. I think that one of the really major differences that I see in how I approach things as

Digby (: 38:30

But

Hazel Maclaurin (: 38:44

as I got older is just trying to really have that balance, that different nuance and kind of understanding, not just understanding, but that almost like embracing that situations are complex and that things are not black and white. Like when you're a kid, when we, know, here's an example, like I like, like,

many parents the world over, I've become far more familiar than I would like to with children's programming and cartoons. I, you know, for a certain age, there is no nuances, goodies and baddies, right? There's, it's very clear lines. And they look at the world that we live in at the moment and the politics that people are navigating and the environment that we're in.

And, know, I'm in the UK, so we've been through Brexit and we are still, we're still sense making that we're still finding out what that means, right? And it's nearly 10 years ago that that happened. So, and I think that there's been, it's, it's so much easier to go to the black and white and be like, yes. So one thing I read the other day from posts somewhere was

Digby (: 39:48

Yeah.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 40:07

Now it seems to be that, you know, previously it was like if we did, if we disagreed, it'd be like, I'm right and you're wrong. Now it's like, I'm right and you're evil. There's just no tolerance. But we're all individuals. We will all have individual experiences and those will shape our individual perspectives. So I think nuance for me is about like understanding the truth of that.

Digby (: 40:17

Yes.

Yes.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 40:36

and understanding that, you know, that for kind of, not even just a better word, like a functional world, it would be helpful to understand that nuance is an inherent part of that and there are different opinions. And that's kind of what I mean about it, like being a grown up, like just understanding that that's a reality.

Digby (: 40:40

Yeah.

Digby (: 40:53

Yeah.

Digby (: 40:59

Yeah.

Digby (: 41:04

Let's link that to language, right? Because you can have blunt language or can have nuanced language. How does language help us attain more nuance?

Hazel Maclaurin (: 41:07

Yeah.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 41:18

I love that. That's a great question and not where I was expecting us to go. I think particularly because we are recording this on March the 1st and we've just seen some very unnuanced language, for example. Well, can I go here? Can I actually use example? So I've been like probably a lot of people I've been watching and rewatching the point in the interview in the Oval Office between Zelensky Trump.

Digby (: 41:35

Let's go there.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 41:47

and Vance gets involved where it all falls apart.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 41:55

And I would say how Vance comes across is, I'm not actually really going to talk about Trump, I'm more going to talk about Vance. think he's more like, the more, I wouldn't say he's more interesting, but he's probably the more significant like player here. And something he does quite a lot, he's like,

He adds in, can I just add one thing? know, President Trump is trying to do diplomacy. He's trying to do it like this, trying to buy that. And he very much paints a picture of, you know, he immediately damns the previous administration outright. He immediately puts them into that baddie bucket. And then he's like, and look, here's your hero. And he's trying to do it like this without more bloodshed. And then what is really interesting, and that's...

You know, here we like simple stories. Let's go back to storytelling. We like simple stories that we can wrap our head around. And actually, you know, we all grew up as, you know, when we were children, it was easier for us to think of goodies and baddies. So we can all grab onto that. So was like, okay. And then what Zelensky does, and I just think the man's composure was incredible considering as well, this is not his first language. He is literally embattled.

Digby (: 42:49

Yeah.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 43:14

I mean, you know, talk about leadership and like, you know, the toughest, the toughest situation any leader could find themselves in. And he, he just, can't remember his exact words, but he says something like, can I ask you a question to Vance? And he's like, so, and then he tells this story and he tells the story of, know, in 2014, they came, you know, they, tried it, our people were dying. They did this, they did that, they did that. In 2019,

Digby (: 43:32

Yes.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 43:42

a ceasefire was agreed and we were told not to give up, you know, not to fight back for any of our land. And Merkel and Macron and all these people said, you know, well, but he signed it now. He's not going to do anything else. He'll be happy with what he's already annexed 2022. And here he is. he uses a very, I mean, I actually think it's really incredible. He asked a question.

He then tells a story that is evidence-based. And then he says, he doesn't say, you're wrong. He says, he takes them on this journey. And then he asks, like, so what makes you think that if he agrees to ceasefire with you, it will be different? And then, and also brings in, how are you going to feel?

Digby (: 44:12

Yes.

Digby (: 44:19

Yes. Yes.

Digby (: 44:32

Yeah. And he invites a conversation rather than a debate and an exploration he's looking for. You know, there's this lovely saying seek to be accurate rather than to be right. And I think through that storytelling, there's the accuracy that can only come from storytelling to say here's a more nuanced perspective around what's happening. And it's probably more accurate as a result of that because it's

Hazel Maclaurin (: 44:37

Right. Yeah.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 44:43

my god, that's really good. Yeah.

Digby (: 45:02

You know, it's not the black and white. I know, trust us and you're wrong. That's yeah. This, this idea of nuance, think there's something about also what came up in my mind was that we need to be willing to slow down and explore different angles rather than, right, we've got to rush through this, make this decision in the half an hour meeting or whatever it is. And so what are the basic things we need to decide on, you know, that kind of thing. And in a rushed, you know, hurried world.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 45:17

Yeah.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 45:29

Yeah.

Digby (: 45:32

that slowing down is seen often as a luxury. And I think, you know, your mission to get storytelling, the power of storytelling as a way to create lasting change, I've put in lasting, that sort of feels like it is. That requires a very different willingness to hold a space for, well, let's hear the different perspectives and let's tell stories. And, you know, are we losing that art or

Hazel Maclaurin (: 45:45

Yeah.

Yeah, great.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 45:57

Yeah.

Digby (: 46:01

At dinner last night, we're talking about, you know, there is a bit of a collapse of the world order starting to happen. You know, that's what's replacing it is grassroots. Initiatives that can include telling different stories, and I suspect your work is really, really important in this space.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 46:16

Yeah.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 46:22

Thank you. I, so that feels like a really good place to go onto another aspect of my work. But actually, I'm going to reflect it back to you from a, because I think this is bringing up what you talk about with being a leader who's a host rather than a hero and creating that space for different stories. Because I think you're right. There's something, and I, you know,

Digby (: 46:32

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Digby (: 46:42

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 46:52

You know, I've been following your work on unhurried productivity. And it's interesting. So in my work as an HR content strategist, which is really a fancy way of saying I write stuff for HR audiences, you know, the power of words, right? It's interesting because I have some clients who are very, who have even fed back to me, like some, they're like, my God, sometimes we just...

We need to make the decision, we make it in a rush. We don't take enough time to reflect. And actually what happens is then we get more information often from other people's perspectives. And then actually we have to go back and change it because we realize what we originally did or the decision we originally made wasn't gonna get us the outcome we wanted because it didn't accurately reflect.

the needs of the people whose problem we were trying to solve. That makes sense. Yeah.

Digby (: 47:52

Yeah. There's also something about making a humble decision. I've just coined that phrase, but a humble decision is one where you acknowledge you don't have the complete information. so making a decision will likely not be final. It's a for now call and we will keep evolving. I'm reminded of when I had the conversation with Sir Ashley Bloomfield and he was on the podcast and he was talking about, you know, the

Hazel Maclaurin (: 47:58

Mmm.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 48:11

Yes. Yes.

Digby (: 48:21

the need to make decisions, but being very transparent. And I would say they were humble decisions in during COVID. You know, there was this, I suspect that members of the public would disagree with that idea, but this, that we've got this information. It's the best we've got right now. We're making this call based on that information rather than here is, here is we are right. And this is what has to happen. Yeah. There's an arrogance to that. And so how do you have a humble decision?

Hazel Maclaurin (: 48:29

Yeah.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 48:37

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yes.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 48:47

Yes, yes, yes, yes, exactly. Yeah, big time, yeah. And to contrast that with our leader in the UK at the time. Not very humble decisions.

Digby (: 48:52

Yeah, you were you were just. yeah, yeah, yeah, talk about lack of nuance, but you were just about to jump into this another aspect of your work, and I'm wondering whether that's about the work around women's potential and women's place in the work workforce. Tell us about that, because.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 49:08

Yeah.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 49:15

Yeah.

Digby (: 49:19

That's quarter who you are. It hasn't really come up so far in our conversation. I'd love to explore that. well, we've been ranging widely.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 49:20

Yeah. Yeah, sorry.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 49:27

We have been raging wild exactly. I can't wait to get this book now. So this women's work, so this women's work is, I hesitate to call it a passion project of mine because actually I feel like it's more the kind of the intersection of a lot of different parts of who I am and what I want to.

leave in the world, right? think a lot of us want to, you know, it's a lot, you know, most people, want to leave the world a better place, right, than what we found it, okay? And I think that also speaks to the thing about like creating lasting change that you were, we were talking about.

And I have been for the last 10 plus years somewhat steeped in sort of what I call like the corporate world, the corporate, the language of money, right? Did another podcast with Gillian Brooks, whose work I rate so, highly. And I'm one of the...

you know, and just to be transparent, you know, she's a friend of mine as well as your life partner. And I just one of the things that she was talking about in that because she was like, a really key moment for her was working out how can she help move our emphasis through, you know, her work as an HR expert and leader from people and planets serving the economy to the economy.

serving people and planet. And I know that's something Kate Rayworth, the economist, has run out of. Yeah, that absolutely speaks for me too. And I think that the thing that I found, so a really big catalyst was when I became a mother, I had this very senior role, know, global organisation, global responsibility. I was very visible. had a lot of...

Digby (: 51:16

Yes.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 51:37

Yeah, I was very visible. The thing I actually remember saying to Ginny was I was highly visible. had high visibility, high responsibility, and almost zero authority to get anything done. And that was really, really hard.

The other thing that happened to me that once I found that I was pregnant was and became a mother was for the first time I really realized how hard it is to be a working mother. And that sounds so obvious now I think about it. And it's not as if, like, it's not as if there aren't other.

barriers that women face. I don't want to talk like, know, poor women with the odours. We have this really hard deal because I think, and you and I were talking before, like there's so many different groups, including men, including people who we might think are in the prime position according to like the structures we have in our society who are like the winners. patriarchy doesn't work for anyone. And I know that's something that you and Ginny explored as well.

Digby (: 52:48

Yes.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 52:51

So, so I'm not, but my lived experience is as a woman who has been through lots of different career iterations and being very senior and also been a mother. So, so that's kind of the area I feel like I have the most permission to play. And, and I can really empathize with, with so many people because I have been in that position, right? So the thing that I wanted to do as a result of that, and I did experience some

Digby (: 53:06

Yes.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 53:20

some difficulties, shall we say, with thinking about like how am I going to integrate both my work as a mother, I'm completely responsible for the survival of this little thing. Like, let alone, like I have to, you know, there's so many things people don't tell you before you become a parent. You've got to help this entity learn how to sleep.

and like learn how to eat and stuff. It's so automatic. We don't even say we take it for granted. It's just part of us, but you have to help them learn how to do this shit, right? So how do I square with... Oh my God, absolutely. How do I square with the fact that I could be commuting to the East Coast of the US three plus times a month?

Digby (: 53:57

Yeah, yeah. It's not just the task you tick off once and is done. You know, no. Yeah.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 54:14

you know, like, how do I square that? the answer was like, it's not going to happen. And then it kind of, but it was also, it was such a confronting experience because I was like, well, hang on a second. I've worked so hard to get to this point. And I truly believe that I am the right person to lead this department. And we spoke earlier about how maybe that was not motivated from the best place. It was more like, I know that I can do this.

I almost feel like.

not entitled, but like, you know, like, this is where I should be going. This is why I should be doing right. As yeah, how do I make all these things kind of happen? And also, like I would be doing keeping it. We have this thing in the UK called keeping in touch days where you you literally like you spend time with your maternity leave and you talk with with your with your colleagues and your boss and stuff.

And I would be like trying to do that and also like get the baby to sleep so I could have these calls and stuff. And I was like, my God, like I literally just don't have time because so much of my time is taken up doing actually what we would consider if we are, you know, able-bodied, independent, professional adults, just life admin, you know?

Digby (: 55:37

Yes. And it's interesting. It's not just time. think it's mental and emotional capacity as well to, know, there's a lot of real estate in your brain that's been in your mind being taken up by this thing called motherhood. And so you're you're you call it a passion project, but it's not really it's something more than that. But I suspect. Tell us about what's the mission there for you.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 55:43

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 55:51

Yeah.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 55:59

Yeah.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 56:04

So this made up his work kind of really was born out of that frustration of like, my goodness, I have been like a very senior level executive. A lot of my value was tied into what my brain did and my professional experience. And then suddenly, not only am I not being valued as much for that at work, because I've now have this new identity as a mother, but also

I am expected to be able to do all of this, like for want of a better word, life admin. And it, because in part because it's seen as women's work and it's nothing to do with my husband. He was very, you know, supportive of all that kind of stuff. But I think what I really want to explore and explode with this project is those myths that actually it's somehow innate to women.

to do that. that's, but the other thing I really want to explore and expose is what we lose out of, lose by kind of having this view of women.

Digby (: 57:17

And when you say we, you're not just talking about women. You're talking about society. Yeah. Yeah.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 57:21

No, I'm talking about society. And I'm talking about the, like, what is the economic impact of excluding women from the workforce just because traditionally they have taken a certain role, right?

Digby (: 57:35

Yeah, I love that explode and it's classic change maker mindset. Right. It's like, well, why does it have to be that way? You know, and I love how it's it's it's born out of you talked about your uniquely, you know, this is the permission you've got to play him because you've got lived experience. And I suspect there's many, many, many people listening to this right now who will be just nodding their heads. And I hope it's not just women that

Hazel Maclaurin (: 57:53

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 58:05

I hope so too, I really hope so. I hope it's men too and I hope it's men who feel like they haven't been able to ask for flexible working arrangement because there's been an expectation of them to show up in a certain way at their work and I hope it's senior men who, you know, God forbid, like regret that they couldn't spend more time with their kids when they were younger because of the expectations of work and family.

Digby (: 58:06

Yeah

Digby (: 58:16

Yes.

Digby (: 58:29

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And all of those stories that we've lived in rather than challenged or not been successful at challenging. Yeah. Has or you you strike me. Through this last hour of conversation as someone who really has found their voice that you are and and are finding different ways to channel it. You know, there's this.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 58:38

Yeah.

Digby (: 58:58

content strategist piece, there's this women's work piece, there's this coming on this podcast, there's there. I'm wondering, guess the final question before we wrap up is.

around how you keep evolving, what's your process? And it might be a hard question. What's your process to keep reinventing and evolving? How do you how do you think about that?

Hazel Maclaurin (: 59:20

Yeah.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 59:30

That's such a great question. And I'm going to answer it in a couple of ways, if you don't mind. So one is...

Hazel Maclaurin (: 59:41

I think for me there's actually quite a clear demarcation of kind of how my evolution evolved. And what I mean by that is I'm going to come back to something I said earlier, which is...

there is a real difference between change because you're moving away from something versus change because you're moving towards something. And if I look back at my career and my life being completely transparent, I would say for the first third of it, it was about moving away from stuff. It was about

proving something to myself or proving something to other people and being like, right, okay, I want to get to a certain place. And that's very, you know, it's a way of motivating yourself, but it doesn't come from a place of going, I want to attain my highest and best. You know, that top of Merseys, pyramid of knees, I want to achieve self-actualization. It's more about

Digby (: 01:00:51

Yes.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 01:00:58

maybe I don't think too highly of myself or I've got certain inadequacies or things I'd like to change and I want to run away from them. Right? then I think, yeah, well, yeah, I think it was, I hope it's a very human thing to me. I hope it wasn't just me.

Digby (: 01:01:05

Yes, I think people can relate to that. Yeah.

Digby (: 01:01:14

I certainly relate to it. It's the driven by social need to be accepted or to prove to others that you're awesome or whatever it might be. It's the belonging piece in the hierarchy, actually.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 01:01:24

precisely.

Yeah, exactly. I think when we were talking previously about this, said, you asked me like, what is the kind of the drive for revolution? And I said, well, earlier on in my life, was shame. It absolutely was. It was like, my God, right. How can I prove I'm good enough? And how can I make sure I'm accepted? And all of those things you've just said. And again, like when I, it was clearly such a pivotal moment for me when I became a mother.

kind of changed because I was like, suddenly I have this little person that I have to try and show that I, that is awesome. And she's just awesome because she's here, right? She hasn't had to do anything. She's, she's here. She's awesome. Like, you know, that, that's it. And I was like, how do I try my absolute utmost to make sure that she still feels that when she's got the noise of the world?

like encroaching on her. I kind of, and I did a lot of research and I talked to a lot of people and I've talked to therapists and I think they do some incredible work. And I discovered this concept of self-compassion, which is...

Digby (: 01:02:29

That's beautiful.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 01:02:53

And I'm sure like many of us kind of would hear the phrase self-compassion, we might have an idea of what it is. There's actually been a lot of research done around this, the power of self-compassion, which is to kind of treat yourself like you would treat a good friend in a nutshell. There's been so much research on that, actually how effective it is in terms of not just making you feel better, but also in eliciting change. there's...

If you look up Dr. Kristin Neff, or you look up self-compassion, you can find all this research. It kind of stretches back 20 years when it first started to be published. It's actually an incredible, incredible driver for change. And the bonus point is, literally, it's more effective than self-criticism. And I think that is something if a lot of us, if we've come from this more

Digby (: 01:03:47

yeah.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 01:03:51

let's move away from something, then move towards something. We can often use criticism to help us to help.

Digby (: 01:03:58

It feels like self-compassion is the portal. It's the doorway from moving away from things to moving towards things. You've got to first adopt self-compassion. Yeah, I really relate to that.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 01:04:11

Yeah, think, well, that has been certainly for me, that has been it. that's so interesting. I'm so fascinated to hear that. That's probably a whole other podcast episode. Yeah.

Digby (: 01:04:23

I'm feeling like it is. feel like we need to deep dive on a couple of themes around this woman's work and this idea of self-compassion. So perhaps we're just putting a pin in that. Let's come back to that. Yes, please. All right. We've just made a commitment live here. So I'm sitting here pretty mind blown.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 01:04:38

Yeah, maybe let's have a repeat. Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, bruises! Thank you!

Digby (: 01:04:52

and heartfelt admiration and connection with you that I've, you know, like I mentioned earlier, we we've only met really we've spent a little bit of time together, but not a lot. And I've I've I've really getting I'm reflecting on.

your capacity for self-reflection and self-knowledge. You clearly you build that into you've had to build into, think, claiming the life you want. And, you're very articulate. In ways that I know this is your power of words, right. It affects it's affecting me, and I suspect there'll be these reverberations from this conversation for me for a very long time. You can. Absolutely. Yeah, we.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 01:05:30

Yeah.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 01:05:35

thanks. Can I have that as a testimonial, please? Please hire me.

Digby (: 01:05:43

And I'm also curious about what what are you taking from this conversation? What have you learned? What have you been reminded of? What's come up for you?

Hazel Maclaurin (: 01:05:52

What I've been reminded of, particularly when we've been talking about evolution, is actually that some things never change and the power of acknowledging that, the power of finding what those things are and what's that red thread or that golden thread that goes through your life. And actually, and some of this comes from the conversation we having a little bit before we started recording, but it's kind of become even more sharply into focus.

during the conversation, which is if I look back at all my different evolutions of what I was doing professionally, whether it was musician or a poet in schools or digital marketing for human resources consultancies, I have this absolutely real core belief that and drive to help people like.

like reach their highest and best, do that self-actualization piece. And part of that is kind of selfish, it's for me too, I want to reach my full potential. But I love, love it when I kind of literally see people living their best lives, you know, like they've, and that doesn't mean they've got it all figured out. It just means they're like, they're standing and living in their truth, and they're so aligned to who they are.

and they are making that work in a world that often feels like it doesn't really value us as individuals. It's that language of money thing again. It's how productive can you be within this set of parameters? And I love it when I meet and get to work with, or if my work can help people move further on that path.

Digby (: 01:07:42

beautifully put. How can people find you if they want to connect with you? What's the best way for people to do that?

Hazel Maclaurin (: 01:07:49

Well, I think so this woman's work, as you said, is in beta, but it is going to be like a much bigger project. You can go to my sub stack, which is sub stack.com forward slash this woman's work. You can go to the website, which is this women's work.com. And you can have a look at my writing that I do for brands that serve the people profession on hazelmclauren.com.

Digby (: 01:08:15

awesome and I suspect there's also LinkedIn as well if people want to go.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 01:08:18

Yeah. yes, there is LinkedIn. Yes. Come and say hi on LinkedIn. I am very much there.

Digby (: 01:08:24

And that is M-A-C-L-A.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 01:08:27

Yeah, it's M-A-C-L-A-U-R-I-N. So we'll put it in the show notes. We can have a whole conversation about how that came up too. because that's my chosen name rather than a, yeah. we'll save that.

Digby (: 01:08:37

Okay.

Digby (: 01:08:41

We have so much more to talk about for now. We'll be pausing rather than stopping, I think. And thank you so much, Hazel, for being in conversation, being real and sharing so much wisdom with us.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 01:08:48

Thank you.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 01:08:53

Thank you, thank you, Digby, so much for inviting me. It's been such a pleasure. I've, as always with our conversations, I've come away like feeling really enriched and like I've learned a lot. And I know that's going to continue to reverberate for a good little while.

Digby (: 01:09:10

Likewise, thank you. See you soon.

Hazel Maclaurin (: 01:09:11

Thank you, see you soon, bye.