34. Choosing Kind Over Nice, Disagreeing Well, and the Art of Courageous Connection | Georgia Murch

Georgia Murch (: 00:09

Nice people praise each other and go, you're amazing, I love that, thank you so much, that's great. And for me, that's nice, but it's kind of manners too, compared to kind, which is where clear is kind. So in order for me to honor you enough, I need to be clear about what's working, what's not, how I'm feeling, but also being prepared to shift. So nice is where I've got this intrinsic need to keep things okay.

because I'm uncomfortable when there isn't peace. Whereas kind is, I care about you enough and the other people around me enough to push through my discomfort and be clear about what's going on.

Digby Scott (: 01:01

conversations we're avoiding at work are exactly the ones that could transform everything and what if there's a crucial difference between being nice to people and being truly kind to them?

one that could revolutionise how you lead. Well, today I'm joined by Georgia Merch, founder of Can We Talk? And she's someone who's spent over 25 years mastering what she calls the dance of building better cultures. Georgia's take is that most of us have lost the art of disagreeing well, and she's got some fascinating insights about why we're so conflict avoidant and what's possible when we learn to push through that discomfort. So whether you're tiptoeing around difficult conversations or wondering how to create psychological safety while still

holding people accountable, this conversation will change how you think about the courage required to truly serve others. Hi, I'm Digby Scott, and this is Dig Deeper, a podcast where I have conversations with depth that will change the way you lead. Let's get into it.

Digby Scott (: 02:01

Georgia Merch, welcome to the show.

Thanks, Deegs. Nice to be here.

Yeah, let's get into this. In your bio that I was reading before we recorded, there's this lovely sentence that you've been in the dance of building better cultures and growing better humans for about 25 years or more. Let's not go back too far. It's a long time. I'm curious about what drew you to the dance.

that is such a diggity question I'm curious about. I love this already.

That's part of my brand, I think.

Georgia Murch (: 02:37

is so your brand. I have always been fascinated about other people and probably always really fascinated about my space and the impact that I have on others as well. And you know how when you're born, there's just things that you're interested in, things that you're not. So human dynamics has always been something that's fascinated me. And because I've worked

led teams, led organisations and worked in this people and culture space for such a long time now. The word dance is, it just makes sense because there is this to and fro. You can dance well, you can dance badly. And so for me, where I'm here now, I suppose the relaxing space of where I'm at now is I feel like I'm meant to be where I am. I found my role. I've found my thing. I found my cause that is about people.

So it's not because I pushed myself there, it's because it's always been a fascination.

Yeah, this is lovely saying water will find its way. Yeah, and that's kind of what you've been doing, right? It's like, huh, this is the thing I come back to. And it's interesting because you and I have something really similar in our career paths, which is that we both started as accountants.

nice.

Georgia Murch (: 03:56

We actually have a few and that's the funny thing. Cause like starting in accounting, which is technically about numbers, not about people, but I loved it. I love a balance sheet. love a profit and loss. I'm such a geek. I love an Excel spreadsheet. Great foundation for when you're working with organisations so that we're not caught in always feelings. We're caught in making sure there's a bottom line impact, but we also did recruitment together. Yeah.

which I think is equally an amazing foundation. was thinking about this the other day because you have to really move through the art of rejecting others well, but also being rejected. You're pitching to clients all the time and building relationships so that you can win the work and place the candidates. But also in order to maintain the candidate relationships, we've got to learn how to reject them well.

and say, no, you didn't get a job, is looking for a job is like one of the biggest things people go through. Well, it used to be in our day. Now you go through lots of gigs.

Tell us about that rejection thing, because, you know, for many people listening, I suspect there's a people pleaser gene, right, that we don't like to upset people. And it's something that's hard to, you know, we have to say no to someone. What was that like for you early on? this, was it an easy thing? it come naturally to reject someone?

The thing that I have noticed about myself and we've kind of like as humans got this nature nurture combination, right? So if I think about my nature, one of the things that I've always been really good at is dealing with things that are in front of me. Not necessarily dealing with them well, but there has been a desire to want to tackle things. And so

Georgia Murch (: 05:54

Doing it wasn't the issue, doing it well was.

Okay, so you knew the task.

did know the task. knew that the job, part of the job was in order to maintain great relationships with people, you have to honor them enough to have the conversation that they need, not the conversation that they want. And it was practice. I had to learn really well, but Paul Durie, my boss said to me, if you can honor people well enough in their discomfort,

You will build really long lasting relationships and these are one of the most important conversations for people when they don't get a job that they want.

I love that, this idea of putting honor at the center of the purpose of the conversation rather than just informing. It's not about, just giving you some information, get on your way. This is about in Te Reo and in Maori language is this lovely term, manaakitanga, which means to essentially uphold someone, uphold someone's spirit, their mana. And

Digby Scott (: 07:01

That's what you were learning to do back then is this, if I'm going to say no, then I'm going to do it with Manakitanga. I'm to do it with grace and honor. And I love that you learned that so early. And I'm also curious about, you said, you know, I've always dealt with things that are in front of me. I might not have done them well. Where does that come from? What were the forces or the people experiences? You know, was it just, was this nature?

Or was it some nurture that went on early in your life as well? Because I admire that. That's something I really want to work on is dealing with what's in front of me. I'm just wondering, is that something that is always been there for you? And how did that come to the fore?

So as you're asking the question, it's dad. It's definitely my father. My father ran, he was the head of sales and marketing for Puma. He worked in sport. played cricket for Victoria, which is one of the states in Australia. He played footy for Hawthorne and he was six foot four and he's a big guy and he's really confident. And, he just did it. He just tackled conversations all the time. He also had to clean up some of the mess.

around the emotional weight that he left behind him, but he did that. And he would always say, darling, don't run, darling, don't hide because it'll come back. It'll come back and get you. It means don't run from the things that you need to deal with. Don't hide from people or situations because it's going to come back. And whether it comes back, whether they come back or whether it comes back and harms us, heart or our head, he was right.

And what does that mean?

Georgia Murch (: 08:43

That only solidified really in the last probably 10 years, not when I was listening to him. Cause when he was lecturing me as a teenager, yeah, you can jam your advice, dad, thank you. But I'm just going to go and do whatever I want to do. But now that you have the, like the beautiful art of reflection as you choose to reflect more, that's definitely where it came from as well as the personality a little bit that I was given.

Yeah, it makes me think about the power of having people around us that we admire, that we look up to, and how much they can shape us. We are more open to their wisdom, their messages. Even if we're a teenager, something's going in, right? There's something about because we love them, because we look up to them. And, you know, I think as leaders, that's a really important message, isn't it? Are you being the person that others can look up to?

it's so true. And I think the question that you ask around who shaped that, I just kept getting great leaders to work with over the years and not everybody has that luxury. I had some messy ones as well, but I remember when I worked at N.O.U.S.S., a global management consulting firm that has won great places to work a number of times because they are a great place to work. But Tim Morton, who led them, he's a Rhodes Scholar. He's remarkable.

He didn't shy away from the tough conversations. We worked with Peter Cook, you know, in Thought Leaders Business School, who is this calm, collected, present man who didn't avoid the tough conversations.

hit you between the eyes.

Georgia Murch (: 10:19

Right? love and kindness, but it's like, boom, you clearly know that there's something that you need to work on. And so like I observed through good leadership and poor leadership, how I felt safer when they dealt with the tough issues, not just with me, but, and I needed some serious feedback, but also with the people around me, because it created containers around what's okay and what's not okay.

Because I was fascinated about humans, was like, that's working, that's not. And so I watched what's working and what's not.

I love that. It's interesting because I'm sitting here as you talk going, I'll avoid conversations that are hard because of my stuff as opposed to what does this person actually need to hear? So I become a bit more egocentric if I'm avoiding, but if I'm doing it in service and I put them at the center or the message at the center, then it becomes easier to

do what's actually most important. And there's a lovely distinction that you make between being nice and being kind. And to me that fits right into that. Can you just explain to us how you think about that distinction?

So the distinction for me came when I was reading Brene Brown's Dare to Lead and it talks about the epitome of privilege of leadership. So she says, the epitome of privilege is when you place your discomfort as a greater priority over somebody else's evolution. I'll say it again, cause I fricking love it. The epitome of privilege is when you place your discomfort over somebody else's evolution. And I was like,

Georgia Murch (: 12:06

Okay. And so that's back to that egocentric thing that you're talking about. Right. So my pain is more important than your growth. Yeah. And so I started thinking about this and then I was observing a lot of the teams and organisations that we were working with. And I really noticed this propensity to want to do the right thing by people intentional. Like my intent is to do the right thing versus.

pushing through discomfort. And so when I think about nice cultures or nice people, they're nice, they're lovely. And nice people praise each other and go, you're amazing, I love that, thank you so much, that's great. And for me, that's nice, but it's kind of manners too, compared to kind, which is where clear is kind. So in order for me to honor you enough, I need to be clear about what's working, what's not.

how I'm feeling, but also being prepared to shift. So nice is where I've got this intrinsic need to keep things okay, because I'm uncomfortable when there isn't peace. Whereas kind is I care about you enough and the other people around me enough to push through my discomfort and be clear about what's going on.

Let's dig into that intrinsic need. The way I think about it is for harmony. It's for stability. It's for the waves to be calm, that kind of thing. Where does that come from? What's going on for us when we're driven more by that than the drive to be clear?

So I've been studying a bit around generational patterns lately because like workplaces are messy at the moment. So they're more messy than ever before. And there's lots of reasons around that, but we've got more generations in the workforce than we've ever had before. And back to this question around why do we need calm? So the older generations are not seeking peace. They're not seeking a calm because they're used to things being challenging. They're the post-war generation. They're used to.

Georgia Murch (: 14:17

pushing through, nutting things out at what cost, usually the cost sometimes to their health, sometimes to people around them. And then if we go to the extreme, to the younger generation we're seeing where they're pleasure seekers. And so we're getting dopamine hits on these phones and apps. And so that's a really big curve, if you like, or line. And so in between, we've got generations that are searching for different things.

And so we don't like discomfort. We search for pleasure and because we're in this world at the moment where we can easily find it, we can shut down and lock situations out. And we live in homes more individually than we live in communities. And we're so busy being nice to each other because we don't want to upset each other. We're constantly searching for how can things be easier.

Yeah, easier. That's it. It reminds me of a conversation I had with an earlier guest on the podcast, Jennifer Garvey Berger. And we were talking about embracing confusion rather than chasing clarity. It's a sort of a similar thing. And the challenge with that, as she said, was that confusion is caloric, meaning to process confusion takes a lot more brain energy. Like to process stuff is a lot harder. But if we have certainty, then we can go, I'm OK.

And I'm wondering whether it's the same with calm. If we get calm, we can go, huh, it's all right. I don't have to engage in that discomfort. Maybe discomfort is also caloric, right? Is that confusion and discomfort feel like they sit in the same bucket? And so we have to work harder when it's uncomfortable. And maybe it feels easier paradoxically when we're moving away from it. But I think that's not right, is it? Because to move away,

I mean, I don't know about you, for me, if I'm avoiding something, it's still there in my head. You know, it's not something that's actually going away, even though I may not do the hard thing. It's still using energy and taking out rent-free space in my brain.

Georgia Murch (: 16:24

Yeah. As you're talking to, think this notion of feeling safe or being comfortable for many people has a relationship to we agree. So it's when we agree that it can feel okay. So this search for agreement, I think is part of the problem. Yeah. And so for me now, not me past, but for me now, if

Anybody has a different opinion to me, whether they provide it aggressively, passive aggressively, or shut down. That's actually got nothing to do with me. And for me, there's an opportunity to recall my inner Digby and go, I want to be curious about that. I want to understand that, but I don't have to agree with you. But it's the emotions that are coming up that most of us are uncomfortable with.

just the content. Yeah. So we've kind of got all of those things colliding. And if I've got a really strong relationship to being right and I won't see that because it's a blind spot for me because I'm right. And so I'm a reforming always righty. So there'll be the discomfort of the content because you're wrong, but there'll also be the discomfort of how people are sharing that with me emotionally.

There's a lot to unpack there. Yeah, that's awesome. It reminds me of there's a saying from the professional poker player, Annie Duke, and she says, don't seek to be right, seek to be accurate. And this idea of seeking accuracy means, well, I don't have the full picture. I wonder what your take on this is. So here's where I'm coming from. And I'm open enough to understand or be curious about where someone else is coming from. And then we can get a fuller picture.

Right?

Digby Scott (: 18:19

This idea of if we can disagree well, doesn't mean one's right and the other's wrong. It might be we just have different perspectives. And what if we put accuracy as the point rather than winning or being the better person or needing to feel good because I'm right.

Can I build on that? Yeah. Cause I'm having like a, reaction to the world accuracy. So just an interesting reaction because I also think for those people that are really data driven or need to be right and that they can be different camps, but they're also maybe not mutually exclusive. People are going to get obsessed about finding what's accurate. Yeah. And I don't know that you ever find accuracy.

I think what you can find is your truth and their truth and somewhere in the middle there's a shared, but then if we stick other people's truths and more like the shared truth gets bigger, but I just don't know that there is accuracy or certainty in the world. And I think that's part of the problem.

Yeah, no, I think that's right. If we're trying to nail it down, here is the truth. Yeah. Then that can lead us down a path of a downward spiral.

And we've all like with your, crew that listen to this, like we've all been in those leadership meetings where it's like everybody will, know, they're justifying, well, I'm just searching for the truth or I'm just searching for things to be right. That's like, my God, you have no idea how challenging you're being right now in the guise of your intent.

Digby Scott (: 19:51

You know, there's something about this idea of disagreeing well though, isn't there? I'm thinking of another podcast, which is really popular right now, which is the rest is politics. It's probably the most listened to political podcasts in the world. And it's two hosts who often have different opinions and they explicitly say, you know, what we do is we aim to disagree. Well, we agree to disagree on issues. And I think one of the reasons that's so popular is that.

people love listening to that disagreement play out, right? And I wonder whether something about, I wish we could do that too. Wish we could have those conversations in that way. I wonder.

So Julia Dar is someone that I love that talks about how we've lost the art of gathering, of actually being together in general. And I think one of the reasons why that podcast works too is because there's explicit permission to disagree. Yeah. And there's an expectation to do it. And so when we work with leaders to diagnose their cultures, one of the spaces that we diagnose is how we meet, how we gather. And I think in lots of instances,

And actually in relationships too, we're not explicit around what the conversations are. Cause sometimes we're there to come up with ideas. Sometimes we're there to share information. Sometimes we're there just to connect. And other times, what if, what if we have meetings to disagree and we teach each other how to disagree well. And so you don't want to just go, we're going to have a meeting to debate and disagree without actually giving people some frameworks to actually do that well.

and then do a cool really debrief around what role did I play in that? You would love that. You would run those so well. I'm curious about the role that I played in this interaction.

Digby Scott (: 21:44

I've got an executive team off site I'm facilitating next week so I'm going to steal this stuff. Totally selfishly. How do you teach people to disagree well?

man, aside from counseling. So the parameters that we often put around it when, well, when I'm leading those types of things and maybe I've got this saying that people hear your content, but they smell your intent.

I say it all the time. I quote you all the time with that. Yeah.

Love it, love it. And so I teach people around what's great content when we're in conversations. And so people often think that their opinions are facts, which is problematic. And the minute you can't prove your opinion with data, dates, times, what people said, what people did, it becomes an opinion fest or an opinion war. so grounding people in debating well with data of stuff that has happened.

but also you can have your opinion because your opinion counts, but not being prepared to shift on it is a problem. So one content, but intent is to, when I think about it, it's not about meditating for two hours, you know, before you go into these helpful, but we don't have the time often for that. So it is about going, is my intent walking in this to actually have my truth be heard by everybody or is my intent.

Georgia Murch (: 23:14

to hear theirs as well and where do I sit on that scale? And so that's a really simplistic way of doing it. Plus the third thing is that we get people to diagnose their conflict avatar and how they are in situations where conflict arises so that there's a level of self-awareness about what they're doing when things, you know, get a bit heated.

I love the conflict avatar. What are some of those? What are some of the different versions of a conflict avatar?

Yeah. And so at a really simplistic level, you might be a mouse where when conflict exists, you retreat, you run, hide. And instead of passive aggressive, you might do a bit of passive agreement. Yep. Sure. Whatever. You know, I'm fine. And like we know, no one in the history of the world of the universe is ever fine when they say I'm

So true.

So true. And then we've got the magpie. And what the magpie does is swoops down, attacks, makes big statements and then flies off and not looking at the emotional weight that they've left behind.

Digby Scott (: 24:20

I remember as a kid, and my brother being stuck under this bush while this magpie just kept trying to get underneath where we were. are relentless. So maybe that's what the magpie in a conflict situation looks like. They're relentlessly attacking.

Relateless!

Georgia Murch (: 24:38

They are, yeah. Or then you might have the monkeys. When tension gets high and conflict exists, they're uncomfortable, so they crack gags and do sarcasm and humor. And so they seem to be changing the dynamic and the energy. And sometimes that's called for, but when they're doing it as a way to avoid conflict, that's when it becomes problematic.

So then you've got the meerkats, which are the most fascinating animals, I reckon in the, in the animal kingdom, because they're all about how you work within a tribe. Well, so if you're a meerkat, your actual job is to look for food and safety, make sure that you're safe from predators and check on the kids, even if they're not your kids, which makes me not want to be a meerkat so much, but the meerkats are always like, you love them. I'm curious what role needs to be done. I'm curious. How can I make this work?

And they've got a natural propensity when they're bit by cobras or Scorpions that they have an antibody straight away that protects them. And so if we were more meerkatty in conflict, we would get curious when there's disagreement. And when people attack, swoop or shut down or crack gags, we would have a natural immunity to go, that's actually got nothing to do with me. That's all about you. So I think as humans, we're wired to want to be the meerkats.

Our self-awareness might think we're very meek-hasty.

there'll be another one at play. What's yours?

Georgia Murch (: 26:04

Yeah. I'm a magpie. So I've been taught to fight by my dad, stand up for yourself, you know, go in, let them know what you think. And I think it's a bit personality as well. And so what I've needed to learn over the years is how do I move to the meerkat? Because I've got feedback over the years too, from people that I deeply respect and those that I don't around.

how I can really intimidate people and have them feel attacked.

So what you're saying, think, is that the meerkats in all of us, we just need to honor and bring that out a bit more consciously, even though our reactive version, which was a mouse, a monkey or a magpie, one of those is going to be our fear based one. And that will tend to override unless we're really conscious. How do we best do that? How do we get the meerkat more front and center rather than one of those other three Ms?

lately.

Georgia Murch (: 27:09

there's so many paths that lead to Rome, right? So, cause essentially what you're asking, and I know, you know, I know you, it's actually a really deep question, you know, and you said earlier, I can't remember the wording, but something like, how do we return to the meerkat? Like, cause we all have it in us. so there's these beliefs that we've got around us all the time around in order for me to lead well.

I need to show that I know stuff and that I'm right or in order for me to add value to the room or show people that I care, I'm going to disengage in this experience or based on my past experiences, conflicts never serve me. So I'm going to shut down. we're so complicated and so beautiful, but at a simple level awareness of the role that we play. the more we can see the role that we're playing in those circumstances.

That's the foundational level. But when we're in self-awareness around that, what we do is we self-control or self-manage. So, I can see myself wanting to mouse and shut down. So I'm going to ask questions or I can see myself wanting to attack. Okay. I'm going to ask questions. but I'm in self-management all the time and that's actually tiring.

exhausting.

There's a lot of ways to deal with it. One of the things that I've been really playing with and experimenting over the last four years in particular is really holding space between what's going on and what I'm thinking about what's going on. Yeah. Get your little senses up.

Digby Scott (: 28:49

Yeah, tell us more about that.

Digby Scott (: 28:55

there. Let's keep going.

So I'm in this place at the moment, Diggs, where I don't believe my thoughts. And so I think our thoughts are part of the problem when it comes to how we do conflict, how we connect, how we connect with ourselves, how we connect with other people. And I'm not saying my thinking isn't powerful and useful because this brain is so beautiful. I'm so grateful for it. But what I'm saying is if I have distance between

The thought, which is out here and what I attach to, and therefore this goes into my heart, goes into my body. And then I have a visceral reaction. If I can see the thought and hold it, but not be it. Now I'm in a really, really much more peaceful place because I can play with these as separate to me rather than my thoughts being everything and something that I need to grip onto and hold to.

So that if I relay that back to if I'm in a room where conflict exists and my natural magpie wants to come out or I want to shut down because I can do both in 30 seconds because I think I can't be bothered, you're not worth it or I'm not going to be safe in this situation. I can see that thought rather than be the thought.

Hmm. Another way to put it is does the thought have you or do you have the thought? The thought has you. You can't see it and it is just driving you and you are at one with the thought. It sounds very Zen, doesn't it? So practically right. I love this idea. Practically. How did you get to the point where you can dissociate, where you can distance? Because I reckon I could go through a whole day.

Digby Scott (: 30:47

just with my thoughts having me, particularly if I'm busy, particularly if I've got a massive to-do list, particularly if I'm a stressed or whatever it might be. How does that practice begin? And I'm asking on behalf of a bunch of other people listening who'll be like, yeah, I really relate to that. How do you even begin that to get to that place?

tried so many things as a person fascinated by the human dance. I've also been interested in my own evolution hole all my life, counseling, healing things, breath work, courses, all of that. And the one thing that I've found that's made the biggest difference, particularly in the last four years is I have a really solid meditation practice. So I have tried lots of different meditation.

There you go.

Georgia Murch (: 31:38

ways of doing things. The one that I love is by the bright path. It's called ascension. It's just a way to describe the meditation practice. It's not about mantras to replace thinking. It's not about not thinking. So it's different to the Buddhist way and they're all beautiful and they're all perfect. But it's actually about allowing thoughts and seeing them and acknowledging them and then coming back.

to returning to yourself. so thoughts aren't the problem. But what you get to do in that practice, like with my eyes shut every day, is I get to see them and not have them be the enemy. And so because I've done that so consistently for four years, it's naturally coming into my daily way of living.

I love this and I also know you as someone who is very commercial, very business oriented. You work in the world where it's about results, right? And to hear you talk about meditation, feels like you could say it's at the other end of some spectrum. And I want to ask you the question, how does this help with

business with results with making an impact because it's surely there's a line between those two things.

So I'll give you the answer for me. Yeah. Cause I'm not here to sell everyone needs to meditate. But what I know the difference for me because yeah, I facilitate boardroom experiences. run leadership programs. We get into really curly problem solving and debate, but I am able to hold the space for a room now without actually it being about me. And so when all that

Georgia Murch (: 33:35

happens or people are shutting down and not contributing, I can see it really easily and I can orbit the experience rather than get frustrated or annoyed or like I can see frustration, I can see annoyance, but I'm not going to be frustrated or I'm not going to be annoyed. And if I do, I'm like, okay, I've got lost again. And so it's sort of allowed me such freedom in how I.

lead my team in how I facilitate and how I teach. And so it's almost like, I was going to say I've got this armor, but it's not that at all because I'm not protecting myself. It's just made me lead and love and teach and be so much more easily. So the experience that I create is better for others.

And my team's actually even said over the last couple of years, thank you for doing this work because we're having a better experience with you leading because can you imagine the magpie who's right? I, my heart's big. love everybody, but I can get in task. I can see the difference so much more easily around how I may be leading my team compared to how I'm leading a room.

Yeah, that idea of leading a team, leading a room, holding the space. And the key word that jumped out for me was freedom. And don't we all want that? That sense of spaciousness to be ourselves and to move and to still make a difference, but do it in our own way. And by being able to dissociate and see your thoughts, that feels like a gateway to that. That to me is the, I don't know the words, formula, but there's something about

that as a practice is certainly for you. It really does help. know, for me, it's when I'm, I love a bit of active meditation. You know, last weekend, the reason I'm sounding so husky is because I went hard last weekend on the water. Like there was four days in a row, we had a long weekend and I was windsurfing, was wing foiling, I was surfing. All of those are experiences of what I call active meditation.

Digby Scott (: 35:48

to be in the moment, to be present. And it's interesting because I've not thought about this before, but in all of those situations, I'm still thinking about other things, not just what the wave's doing or whatever, but there's something about, I'm still thinking, but I'm observing my thoughts in a way that if I'm just in day to day, I'm probably not. So whatever the practice is, it doesn't matter, but a way that you can have a circuit breaker to go, huh, what am I thinking?

how interesting. How fascinating is that? I love that phrase. How fascinating is what I'm thinking because it distances me from that.

Yeah. And what I've noticed too through it is that I am not searching for the answer anymore. The answer's coming to me. So I will sit down and think around design of something new or how do I help this team move through this thing. So I'm intentional about the thinking then, but because I'm creating more and more space in my mind to be present in the moment, ideas are coming to me. My ideas are so much better than when I'm grasping for

Yeah, and there's a lovely distinction talking about Pete Cook, you mentioned earlier. I remember having a conversation with him about I had this realization for years I tried to create space in my calendar and it was just always so hard. There's always stuff just landing in there and we

Like windsurfing and surfing.

Digby Scott (: 37:16

Yeah, but the key shift that I had for me, and I just came through a conversation with Pete, that it's actually not about spacing your calendar, it's about spacing your mind. And to be able to have a calmer mind allows that brilliance to come through those epiphanies, those new ideas. Even just a word that you're searching for when you're working with a group of people, it's like if you're calmer, then that stuff can come through more easily. It's not really powerful.

I want to make an observation too, think this I'd love to explore this with you, when I first met you, which would have been about nearly 10 years ago, I reckon.

the grass in Sydney. Yeah, was like this, we went away, know, we had that like picnic or something on the grass with all the people at this

Boss?

Digby Scott (: 38:03

Yeah, that's when I graduated to Black Belt. I remember that. is a by the way, listen, that's a thought leaders business school term, Black Belt.

I didn't

It felt a bit like that actually because I didn't know these people, including you. But you were really different back then. On the outside at least. had, I remember, was it hairspray? Your hair was so different. It was big hair and the power dressing. what I've noticed with you, there wasn't 80s, it wasn't quite the big shoulders stuff. But what I've noticed with you over the

that we've known each other is a beautiful softening. You your hair is now down over your shoulders and it's your whole demeanor is it's softer. I wouldn't call it soft, but I would call it softer and more welcoming and opening in and you use the word armor before and that I really I'm hmm. Yeah, that would have been a word I would have associated with you from a decade ago and it doesn't feel like there's armor there now.

And I'm wondering what precipitated that shift for you. What happened do you think?

Georgia Murch (: 39:17

I got a lot of feedback from people that I respected, not heaps, but enough of this theme over the years that I do intimidate people and that it is hard to disagree with me. And then I started watching the impact that I had on people. So like beautiful, kind people who I would say something and then their body language changed or.

how I would go into attack with other people who were really strong and how no one listened to each other. And I just realized, I thought I was more self-aware than I was. And I think in general, we all have a heightened sense of self-awareness compared to actually who we really are. And I just did some really brave work.

And I really sat in the discomfort of taking responsibility for the impact that I have. And so for me, it was about stepping back for others. might be about stepping in, but in order to go through that experience, I had to go through the pain of, my God, I'm not who I want to be. Like my intent is this, but actually it's not having that impact. But I also had to make friends with the fact that not everyone's always going to like me. I'm not always.

going to be received the way I want to be received and that's not my responsibility. So my responsibility is me, not you need to toughen up or you need to be less emotional. Like it's my, my responsibility is me.

Yeah. And if you can be a version of you that has the impact that you want to be having, that's going to benefit you as well as others, which comes back to the dance, right? Because if you're trying to lead a dance that someone else isn't wanting to do, then that's going to be messy. That's going to be awkward to look at and not nice to be in. So you're becoming a better dancer or as you say, dancer.

Georgia Murch (: 41:23

Dancer. Well, no, now I live in New Zealand as well. Yeah. I'm have to do dancer.

You do. So for those of you people who don't know, you're now spending time between both New Zealand and Australia. Yeah. And that's a newish thing for you. I'm curious about what you're noticing culturally in your work. What are some of the distinctions that are coming up?

I am

Georgia Murch (: 41:49

The Kiwis are beautiful. they're so beautiful, such beautiful, kind souls. One of the things that I've noticed about the Kiwi compared to Australian market is this real propensity to be nice, you know, that we talked about earlier. So they are kind, they will listen. They don't have this freneticism, which I love. And I think just being around nature so often and so much of it.

It's certainly really incredibly healing and amazing and powerful. And I have noticed a lot of conflict avoidance. That's a beautiful space to now play in around how, how can we set up really accountable cultures where it actually is kind to lead into having the challenging conversations, doing conflict well.

And so, and it's got harder since COVID. So in all countries globally, we are more conflict avoidant. So it's not just New Zealand. It's certainly Australia as well. But yeah, that's kind of what I'm noticing so far.

What's the opportunity if we get over this conflict avoidance, whether it's in New Zealand or globally, what's the opportunity, what's the possibility that's waiting to happen?

I don't know that we're ever going to get over it, but I think if we create more awareness around it, it is that conversation that we've had earlier around this shared truth that we're missing out on. Like you can only grow as much as you're prepared to hear. And I mean individually and as an organisation. So you can only grow when you add to your pool of truth, not defend yours. So there's an opportunity to keep.

Georgia Murch (: 43:30

growing, changing, evolving, and we have to right now. We know that, but we can't do it with the knowledge that we have. We have to keep gaining from others and not seeing it as personal, even though it feels like it.

If I'm open to a different perspective that perhaps I disagree with, that's actually going to be good for me because it helps me grow.

We know that in our head. It's a heart that sometimes struggles with that.

Yeah, and cutting through to the heart seems to be the way. This is awesome. So Georgia, the question I love to ask as we bring our conversation to a close is what have you learned or been reminded of during our conversation?

Yes TV.

Georgia Murch (: 44:17

You know, I, I speak regularly. I do podcasts and I'll prep for them and I'll think about it. And what I decided and have been deciding this year is my prep isn't for the experience I'm in, like keep doing the work during the year, doing the research, knowing your stuff. And I think the thing that I really loved about this is no prep.

And just showing up and trusting that the experience, like just being the experience, that's enough. I'm learning that that's enough. And so that's, think I've played really light with this with you because actually just showing up is going to be enough and then work out what kind of, hopefully some helpful pearls in there to help all you crew who are listening right now and just enjoy myself with you, which always happens every time we get together. So thank you.

Thank you. It reminds me as I got asked last week, you how long did it take you to prepare for this work you're doing? And I said, oh, my whole life. You know, it's like, yeah, and what if you could trust that a bit more, right? That you've actually got a lot of that stuff inside you already. That's a beautiful place to finish. How can people find you and connect with you?

Yes, please find me. So can we talk.co is the name of the site my business leads, but LinkedIn, Georgia merch. Come follow me. Come play. Yeah. We regularly run events in the major cities in New Zealand and also online and yeah. Australia and New Zealand. Yeah. So my, both my happy places.

around Australia as well.

Digby Scott (: 46:02

Stay beautiful, Georgia. Thank you.

I stylin'.

Digby Scott (: 46:11

just a reflection after that lovely conversation with Georgia. You how sometimes conversations take a little while to warm up? It felt like that one with Georgia and I, reckon we found our groove and we're trying to find our way into the conversation and I wonder whether that's true for you as well. When it's like, okay, now we found our flow. Really got into it. One of the things I loved was those avatars, those conflict avatars of the mouse, the magpie, the monkey and the meerkat.

and that they're all in us and perhaps we can just bring out our inner meerkat a little bit more consciously and the way to do that is better see what's going on for yourself. Slowing down is one of those key things to enable that so something to think about how do you slow down see your thoughts what's your practice for that.

If you love this episode, you'll probably also love episode 22 with Jennifer Garvey Burger, where we talk about embracing confusion rather than chasing clarity. And I suspect you'll also like episode 14 with Adam Cooper, where we get into what it takes to stay present so you can respond more effectively in the moment. Real themes that came up with this conversation with Georgia and I. If you love this, then there's more to come. Follow, dig deeper in your favorite.

podcast app and if you also like reading things not just listening to things you probably like my weekly newsletter which is also called dig deeper you can get that by going to digbyscott.com forward slash subscribe I'm Digby Scott this is dig deeper and until next time go well