28. Claiming Your Space, Breaking Free from ‘Should’ Stories, and the Courage to Be You | Nicola Nation

Nicola Nation (: 00:09

I became chief executive at an organisation that I'd already been at for three and a half years. And I thought, this is great. I know the land, I know how the business model works, I know the people, etc. But what I didn't appreciate is that I was trying to be a version of the previous chief executive because that was the role model. And it wasn't until I went, I'm going to be a really bad version of that.

And that thought bouncing around in my head, which was just be you. And then having to dig deeper and be like, but what does that mean? What does being me mean?

Digby Scott (: 00:54

What if leadership was first about claiming your own space to be you? And what if agency isn't something we're granted, but something we already have, if only we'd remember to use it? Well, today I'm joined by Nicola Nation, who's the former CEO of the Ākina Foundation, and who at the age of seven wrote a letter to her parish priest demanding girls be allowed to serve on the altar. Her aspiration back then was to become the first female pope.

And I first reached out to Nicola because in following her work over a number of years, I sensed that she stood for something. She came across as real, passionate, and on a mission. And I was super curious to learn where that sense of purpose and drive came from.

In this conversation we get into all of that. We discover and explore how leaders can break free from the should and have to stories that limit us. Why creating space for ourselves creates space for others to thrive and the courage it takes to show up authentically when you might be telling yourself that you need to be a caricature of some other leader.

Whether you're trapped in a role, feeling stuck, wrestling with over responsibility or simply curious about stepping more into your power more fully, this conversation will change how you think about the choices you've got and the agency that you already have. Hi, I'm Digby Scott, and this is Dig Deeper, a podcast where I have conversations with depth that will change the way you lead. Let's go.

Digby Scott (: 02:30

Hello, welcome to the show.

Kia ora, Digby. Nice to be here.

Let's start with getting in the way back machine and let's go back not that far to when you were seven. What happened when you were seven years old?

Great question. So I was brought up in Irish Catholic family and I went to a small local Catholic school and I reflected a bit actually about the influence of my faith on my career. And I think what the Catholic church does well and what it gave me was this real big sense of social justice. And when I was seven, I clocked that only boys were able to be serving on the altar. And I decided that that was unfair.

And I wrote a letter to the parish priest and put forward my case that I felt that I should be able to be an altar server as a girl and that I had interest and aptitude in doing that and made the case that girls should be able to do that too. My aspiration ultimately was that I wanted to be the first female pope. And it was with a wry smile that I saw just last week that there was a vacancy for a pope.

Nicola Nation (: 03:45

Anyhow, the parish priest declined my request and I was unable to fulfil that ambition, but I note that things have changed now and girls are allowed to be serving on the altar.

That's interesting. So maybe you were the catalyst for some sort of change. Maybe we can just decide that that was the case. Right. It's interesting. Right. That at seven first, I suspect that a lot of kids around that age would think that things are unfair. You know, there's this realization that I can't do whatever I want. Right. And, you know, as our brains are developing. But what I find interesting about that is what you did next, which was to write a letter.

you took action and I think that's where maybe you're more in the minority. know, maybe kids take action, they chuck a tantrum or something like that. But what you did is something more constructive. If you reflect on that, what do you reckon it was that you decided I'm going to do something constructive rather than just throw a tantrum?

Yeah, and there were probably plenty of examples that my parents had to deal with where perhaps I wasn't quite so constructive. I was a child that always liked to understand the why and potentially argue the point and had a long and very fun career as a debater through school and college. I think what made me take action is a deep-seated belief that you can't complain if you're in a position to try and change something and you haven't tried.

in my mind and this happens in my household. If you haven't tried to improve the situation, it falls on deaf ears as far as I'm concerned, just the parent in a situation now. And I just have this deep-seated belief that we can all make a difference. And if you spot something and you think it can be improved, well, you have an obligation actually to yourself to do something about that.

Digby Scott (: 05:37

I love that. And it might be that, you know, with the parent had on or in a workplace, the leader had on the question you might ask is, well, what have you tried so far? Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. What, when you ask a question like that, what happens on the other side of that conversation? What do you see people's responses to a question like, you know, the invitation to have some agency, what do you notice?

Well, I would hope that they reflect on their own empowerment in a given situation. You use the word agency, and it's one that I love actually. And I think that a lot of us in the workplace don't appreciate where we have agency and where we can use it. So I would hope if I'm having that conversation with someone that it gives them pause to think about, actually, how can I contribute to the solution here? And what have I done so far? And what might I do next?

Yeah, I'm a massive believer in developing agency and almost like not even developing, but just reminding people that we have more choice than we think. And we give ourselves credit for. And certainly my journey has been one where it always comes back to, yes, stop saying that it's You've always got some choices. What's your next step? Right. And just to be in momentum, in action.

and making choices I find is such a, such a salve, know, for tough times. It's like, all right, well, what else could I do? What's the next choice? And I suspect, you know, it's the same for all of us, right? What's your experience of, perhaps when you felt stuck? I wonder if you can tell us a story about a time where in your career, your life,

You know, that advice was there, but maybe it wasn't coming front of mind to you. And there was kind of a spinning wheel sort of time. What comes to mind?

Nicola Nation (: 07:32

I think what you've just described is super liberating actually, Digby, when you get your head around that. And I do have an example I'll come back to, but the other thing that I think is recognition that hard things are hard. And if you're in a situation and it's hard actually stopping and saying, this is really hard and that's okay. And the next thing I'm going to do is this. And I don't know the next 10 steps, but I know the next one step and that's okay. So I think.

ive role at Ākina in October: 2021

filled their calendar with back-to-back meetings because that's important and gave themself no grace, no time, no lunch.

Ha

And I didn't get stuck so much to your question, but I was putting myself on this ridiculous hamster wheel of my own volition. Nobody had described the hours I needed to work or how I needed to do that. And it was when I stepped back and started to give myself permission to actually be myself. When I noticed that some of my amazing colleagues were going for a run at 11 o'clock in the morning and

Nicola Nation (: 09:12

I as their boss had no problem with that. So I was like, well, why aren't you allowing yourself to do that? And feeling like that because I was the leader, I had to be the one that was working the longest hours and burning the candle at both ends and travelling a lot, etc. And when I slowed down and started meeting a friend for coffee and work hours, because I hadn't seen that friend for two months or three months and the world didn't stop turning and recognise that I became a better leader.

when I allowed myself to fill all of those different buckets in my world, that was very liberating. And that was my sense of, this is what agency is. And I'm actually role modeling leadership here.

Interesting. that link to agency, there was sort of, you disowned your own agency when you were, this is how I should be or have to be. you didn't say it, but the word I would use is how do I want to be as a leader? What's my way of doing it? And when we met for coffee a few months ago, that was in the middle of the day. So clearly you've made that shift, which is awesome. And you seem pretty relaxed about it. that's awesome. What caused the shift?

do you think to going from should or have to to want to.

Teetering on the edge of I think, and recognising that I wanted to stay in my job and I had things I wanted to complete and achieve. And that if I was to do that, I needed to transform in that role. Whereas I think in a previous life, I contracted into government for quite some time. I think what happened there was when I was teetering on the edge of, gosh, this is too much. I would actually just stop and take a bit of time out.

Nicola Nation (: 10:57

But I recognised in myself that that wasn't an option. I didn't want to do that. I wanted to keep going. So it's like, okay, how are you going to transform within this role whilst maintaining your responsibilities to yourself, to your job, to your people, etc. Yeah, that's what started that shift and lots of deep work with my coach.

great. So you had someone as a sounding board as someone to help you go into what's the story here that I maybe need to reinvent, etc.

Yeah, 100 % the narrative and what Mary and I talked about at length was over-responsible and under-responsible. Yeah. And really working on also as the chief executive, what's the bit that only you can do. And as part of my leadership journey, because I'd come out of the general manager role within the same organisation, I was used to being down in the weeds. I have a certain strength and detail and actually lifting myself out of my comfort zone in my previous role.

and lifting myself up into that strategic role and really asking myself, what is it that only I can do? I helped to create simple things like space in my calendar. Someone would reach out to me and it'd be like, actually, I don't need to be involved in this. I'm not coming to this meeting. You don't need me here. So empowering others to get on with their roles and to be fair to them. They saw a leader that wanted to be all over all the things and actually stepping back, creating space for others, created space for me as well.

That's great. love that. Cranespace felt this great space for me. And, you know, my own journey, I remember the completely different context. I was about maybe 25. I finished my chartered accounting. was like, I was going to go do something completely different. And so I was, ended up working in a ski resort in Canada and I became the supervisor of this ski rental shop and one of the resorts. And I had the same story about, I'm the boss now.

Digby Scott (: 12:52

And these are people that up until that day when I became the supervisor, they were my mates, you know, and we all just snowboarding at lunchtime, you know, just having a good time at the pub after work and all that. And suddenly I was the boss and I had the same story. well, actually it wasn't the boss works the hardest, but it was the boss tells people what to do. And it got me in so much trouble that story because I started to fray relationships.

my confidence went down because I was in this story that wasn't sustainable for what really mattered. And yeah, it was an interesting lesson because I was bumping up against all these limitations with that story. I actually had a great mentor and he said, no, that's not you. You have to be you, right? You have to show up as you and people will respond to that. And I suspect it was the same in your story too, right? There was this

Yeah, 100%. So I've reflected on this quite a lot because I became chief executive at an organisation that I'd already been at for three and a half years. And I thought, this is great. I know the lay of the land. I know how the business model works. I know the people, cetera. But what I didn't appreciate is that I was trying to be a version of the previous chief executive because that was the role model. And it wasn't until I went, I'm going to be a really bad version of that.

And that thought bouncing around in my head, which was just be you. And then having to dig deeper and be like, what does that mean? What does being me mean? And actually stepping into that, which was quite scary and recognizing that people were responding positively to that. That was pretty cool.

What's the scary bit about being you do you think?

Nicola Nation (: 14:42

Well, there's parts of me that are perhaps aren't things that I aspire to or am proud of. said to my team recently, said, Ākina has been through a pretty tough time. said, you've seen the best of me and you've seen the worst of me. And you know, when you front up with your full self, not every day is a, you know, an A day. You're trying your best, but actually sometimes my communication might've been a bit sharp because I was a bit stressed or feeling.

like I was being dragged into things that I didn't want to be dragged into, for example, which was recognizing that there was a pattern I created at the same time. So what was being scary about being myself was like, but what if people don't like that version of me and they all choose to leave? Ow. Yeah.

It's like I didn't sign up for that. Yeah, yeah. It's interesting, right? Because I think my experience tells me we respond to people's flaws if they're honest about it. And I think that it shows the humanity behind the mask, behind the title. And I feel like that's more of what we need. It doesn't mean being all soft and woo-woo. It means just being real.

holding the mirror.

Digby Scott (: 15:57

And I think it starts with an acceptance that, this is who I am and I'm okay with that. And man, that has been a journey for me, you know, this, and even now, right? It's funny, right? Because I'm recording from Oakura, which is a place I love in Taranaki. I'm up here for primarily some writing just to get away. And I still struggle with sharing what I'm doing with people, which is so silly because

I have this little voice in my head, it's a small voice, but it's still there saying, oh, you're so privileged to be able to do that. And I probably am to be able to make this happen. And then there's this little voice that says, people are going to judge you for that and all that sort of stuff. But then I go, there's a louder voice that says, yeah, but it's also showing what's possible. And it's actually more importantly, what will help me be good in the world.

as a leader and that creating permission to just get what you need is something that I'm really thinking about a lot at the moment. How do I create and get that so I can be of service? You it's the old put your own oxygen mask on first. What are your sort of rituals and ways of getting what you need?

Great question. I'm going to come back to ask you what you're writing about, didn't you? That interests me. I think I have become a ruthless prioritiser, and that comes back to over-responsible, under-responsible. So, you know, write the long list of all the things and then look at it. And I don't mean all the things that work. All the things. Like, okay, which of these give me joy? Which of these do I actually really want to do?

And sometimes it's prioritizing going to the kids cross country and other times it's like, I can get out of going to the kids cross country. So being honest with myself about, guess, where I want to show up, where I want to spend my time and then really practical things. I'm a really pragmatic person blocking that out in my calendar.

Digby Scott (: 17:56

Ha ha ha ha.

Nicola Nation (: 18:10

making sure, and this was something that I've learnt and I am always needing to practise, making sure there's enough space to walk home from work so I can have a think about things. So there's enough space to give my mum a call and be that rounded person that I want to be. And giving myself permission to turn up as the leader that I want to be, which is like bringing a little bit of fun into the workplace.

seen on LinkedIn, I baked a seventh birthday cake for the team because it was my seventh birthday. That's so cool. And why not? And it was covered in this terrible bright blue icing and my hands were like a smith. But when I slow down is when I remember, that's right. It's so-and-so's son's birthday today. And what are you doing for dinner tonight? And I'm able to make those more.

personal connections that fill my cup that make me feel like I'm being a better person. And also I give myself permission and was getting better at this actually. I am going to go to that conference, but no, I'm not going to go to that one. I've travelled enough in the last month. I'm going to take a couple of weeks off. And another way that I do that, and I talk to a lot of people about this, it's a surprise to them to learn that I physically log in and log out of LinkedIn.

So I'll recognise where I'm like, no, I'm getting a bit full and I'll log out and I'll just take some breathing space. It's all there waiting for you when you get back. That's how the algorithm works. And then catch up. And then I feel like I'm doing things on my terms rather than, yeah, because I have to.

That's a really interesting one that logging out of LinkedIn because I think the usual advice is, you know, don't go on there until after lunch or whatever it is, you know, just have some clear space. But you're making a very, very deliberate, small additional step, which is actually just to make it that little bit harder to go on there in the first place. That's right. And that's brilliant. To me, it's that, you know, maybe there's some advice there for people around if you want to claim some space back to really be at your best.

Digby Scott (: 20:18

then just make it that bit harder to do the things that actually, you know, get in the way of that. Right. That's a great idea. Yeah.

Yeah, and I think it's things that have been talked about quite a lot. There's no new news here, but not having your phone by your bed. I make my phone as uninteresting as possible. I actually have this other little rule. I don't watch videos on my phone. And so therefore, if I'm on my phone, I don't need my headphones. So I'm just generally reading the news. And because I don't watch videos on my phone, I don't end up in TikTok or Instagram rabbit holes of reels.

Is that why you don't watch videos? it's stop the downward slide.

That's been the added benefit. The first reason I didn't was I've never had my headphones nearby. And then I realized that actually this is a really good habit to stick to.

That's awesome. Yeah, it's little rules of thumb, right? Like that. And it doesn't have to be to do with tech. It's to do with, you know, all the distractions and on the other side of it, you know, it's what are the key things that something I've been thinking about a lot lately to stay more and hurried and more focused is what are the two or three things I can do to set myself up for the day that will really fill my cup. And I've come across an executive that I'm talking to next week.

Digby Scott (: 21:33

He's in the office by six and you'd think you come back to your story about working all hours. My understanding, I've not talked to him yet. This is through someone else who knows him. He said, he's up at four. He goes for a big old run or that goes to the gym. He'll journal, he'll meditate. And then by the time he's in work mode, he is ready. He's got what he needs. And so then he can be of service to others through the course of whatever's

flying at him in that day. I'm really interested to know, well, when does he finish? What's his close down routine? Is that start at 3 p.m. or what? And so there's something about the prioritizing getting what you need first that I think is so obvious, but we often don't allow ourselves to do that because I'm curious about this over responsible thing. Where does that come from? Like you're a middle child, right? Isn't that supposed to be the oldest child?

I'm the eldest due shelter.

The eldest daughter, there you go. Where does it come from? Because I have it too. I'm the oldest son. And I feel like my partner is always saying to me, is that yours to own? Do you need to take responsibility for that?

Digmy, because I was born in: 1975

Nicola Nation (: 23:15

So I get one of them and I stick it over that Nicola can do anything. And what feminism forgot to teach us was that we couldn't do everything. We had to make some choices. But I'm a type A personality. I'm not too much of a people pleaser, but I have been taught that good girls try hard and good girls do their best and good girls say yes and figure it out later. Coupled with

not wanting to let go of opportunities. I was reflecting on that in my career. I've always been someone who's put my hand up and pushed myself forward and been like, I'll figure it out later. And I think it also wanting to do the best and being relatively capable. And so then you do do a good job and then you are given more responsibility. It can set up these cycles of taking responsibility of things that actually are not necessarily because you're the most capable doesn't mean they're actually things for you to own. And I see that in various.

aspects of my life.

It reminds me of Derek Sivers who I had on the podcast a few episodes back and he wrote a book called Hell Yeah or No. And you've probably come across the idea that, unless it's a hell yeah, you're like, oh my God, I really want to do that. You need to say no. The more I've dug into that idea, my understanding is for the first half of your career, you want to say hell yeah to everything because it gives you all of this experience and

exposure and you know, you learn what you're about and what you're not about and what you're good at and all that stuff. And then there's an inflection point where you need to start to say it's only hell yeah. If it's really truly hell yeah. The rest of it's no, I'm wondering where you're at on that. You know, you're a bit more seasoned now, you know, you've got a few years under your belt. How do you discern between when to say yes and take responsibility and when

Digby Scott (: 25:13

to go, you know what, no, because that to me is not easy for many, many people.

Do you mean when I decide that something's my responsibility or when I decide that yes, I want to go for it?

Or maybe more the latter actually, when you want to go for it, because it sounds like your wiring is go for it. And then there's a point we go, well, yeah, girls can't do it at all. And neither can guys. So what's your sort of algorithm, what's your filtering process to go, this is the thing I'm going for. And all these other things can wait or not happen at all.

Yeah, for me, that has been a journey in time. And when I was starting out my career in my twenties and early thirties in New Zealand and in the UK, didn't have children and didn't really have financial constraints, right? So you could take a job, you could say yes to all sorts of things. And if occasionally it meant working long hours or working in the weekends, I was okay with that because I had a game plan in mind.

and was feeling like I was investing in myself and in my career. However, to your point around the inflection point, I had my first child at 34 and then the opportunity cost of working over weekend is much, much higher and had a family to think of which involves compromise. I was married by that stage and so it's not just about my career or where there was a point where I could have applied for some jobs for some work in Washington.

Nicola Nation (: 26:40

We had our second child on the way and that was a bit of a hell year. actually, no, we can't. When we looked at the sum of all the things, and we, I my husband and I, the sacrifice was too great. Had that opportunity been 10 years earlier, absolutely, it would have been a hell year. So for me, it's been around hell year within a container, within a container of how does this balance all the bits.

I love that. Hell yeah. With a container. It's almost like there's some stuff that's not negotiable, but within that man go crazy. And yeah, any life is a dance, right? Because life is always going to throw you opportunities. And I've just been through one in the last couple of weeks where there's a hell yeah. For me to go and help crew on a yacht for two weeks up in the Northwest of Western Australia for a friend who's bringing his yacht back from Indonesia. In fact, Andrew Maffet, he was a podcast guest and

Exactly.

Digby Scott (: 27:37

He's bringing it back to start his new chapter. calls me the other day saying, do you want to help crew it back? And I'm like, well, there's only one answer to that. But then there was the financial thing. Can I afford it? And, you know, time out and all this sort of stuff. But what I noticed was the container was my values. The thing that set the boundary was what's life about for me and adventure in and.

novelty, you like, probably more adventure is definitely one of those ones. It's one of those ones that go to get to the end of your life to go, well, what would I regret? And I think I would, I kind of very quickly landed on, I'd regret this. then it was now I'm into the, said, hell yeah, I've told him that I'm in and now I'm working out how to make it work and that's okay. And I'd rather do it that way rather than how do I make this work and then make the decision.

Did you consult with anyone about what's going

Yeah. to be honest, I let my kids know, I was thinking about doing it because they're all young adults now. And this time of year, which is sort of like later winter, it's when we typically go snowboarding together. And I said, you know, this might mean that I don't get to spend as much time with you. We still go, but it might be a weekend around the week, something. Right. And so, but it was less asking for permission. It was more.

letting you know I'm thinking about it, what do you think? Let's talk it through. With my partner, it was definitely, oh my God, can we talk this through? It's a nice question though, right? Because you can't do it in a vacuum.

Nicola Nation (: 29:13

Yeah.

Nicola Nation (: 29:17

I don't think so. But on that hell year in a container point, Digby, I think it's really important when you're faced with something like that to really push into if it's not a hell year, making sure that it's not being driven by fear, that the no's not driven by fear. So for me, when I was asked to apply for the chief executive role at Ākina, I thought of 14 reasons that was a no. was like, absolutely not. No, I'm not the right person for all of these reasons.

Yes.

Nicola Nation (: 29:44

And I sat myself down, probably took myself for a walk or a run and I was like, Nicola, for goodness sake, the no's not your decision. The no's the board's decision. So you need to hell yeah boots and all. And you let them decide if it's a yes or a no. And if it's a no, that's fine. But it wasn't an immediate hell yeah, because I was terrified.

And we dig into that a bit. What helps you work through fear? What's your approach to that? And how do you do that?

identifying it.

On my tummy?

So you're listening to your body, right? I think that's a really key bit that we probably could learn to do more. Certainly I could. Like, what's my gut say? Right? Yeah. And then what do do with it? there's fear. Then what happens? How do you process that?

Nicola Nation (: 30:31

Well, I was a bit anxious coming on to talk to you today and I was like, what's going on there? I thought, you are pretty scary. And recognizing that, well, actually to that point, Digby, that I was going to be trusting you. I'm in your hands for the next period of time. And I thought, yeah, that's cool. I like Digby. I've listened to his podcast. I trust him. And recognizing what was driving that I think has really helped.

It's interesting just even that question, right? What's driving this? And to me, there's something about, if I come back to that crewing invitation, it was an excitement more than a dread, you know, the dread of missing out stuff, other opportunities here or whatever that was smaller than that. my God, I can imagine this, you know, and there was, it was a pretty clear.

that again it was a body response. It's like a fluttering more than a weight, if you like. And I think that's maybe something we can only really do. I've got a lovely book. I think it's called Things You Can Only See When You Slow Down. I think it's a Japanese author. can't remember the name. And I think the discipline of being able to go slow down. What's my body telling me? When we're always on, when we're always on.

over responsible when our days are back to back with meetings. Do we really get that chance to do that?

That links to, I think it might have been your last podcast guest, effectiveness.

Digby Scott (: 32:07

Mmm, Simon Dowling.

So you can be super busy. Are you being effective?

Yeah, that's right. And one of the other ease was emotion, right? Tapping into emotion for yourself and for others. So we're talking about efficiency, effectiveness and emotion as the three sort of metrics. And to me, they all kind of live together, but efficiency should be the least of your focus areas. I reckon. Can we shift gears a little? There's something I wanted to explore with you. One of the reasons

that we're talking is because I love talking with purpose-led leaders. Now, digging into doing some research into you and your history and having conversations with you, there's a strong sense that that's who you are. There's a strong sense of purpose to your work, why you're here. And I read something that when you were really young, you were quite a shy person who didn't really have that voice.

And then this thing happened at seven. I'm wondering about, you alluded to it earlier, it seems to be that you've been purpose-led for a while. Can you tell me a little bit about where does all of that sense of purpose come from?

Nicola Nation (: 33:29

I've been wondering that myself, it's quite hard to pinpoint. As a youngster, I was quite unwell until I was seven. And then I had an operation that improved my health. And so my mum said that I just became a child with a lot more energy at that point. So I think physically, which we've touched on, started to feel better and engaged more in the world around you. I think part of being purpose-led has been this combination of

reaching for opportunities from a young age and wanting to try stuff and recognizing, I think I was about 14 or 15 when I told myself, you're going to get out of this what you put in, which created some unhealthy habits actually, practices of putting in so much to the earlier part of our conversation. But sort of recognizing that

if you take advantage of opportunities and when you have accepted an opportunity, you gave 120 % of yourself to that, you are going to get more out of it than if you were more passive. So taking an active engagement approach to things, but that the purpose part comes down to this really deep seeded view that I want to be the change that I want to see in the world. that, yeah, that I owe it to myself to do that.

and curious about how that might be achieved and have tried to do that in different ways. Had a long career in procurement, recognising that procurement was a big lever for change and playing around with that idea before it really had a lot of traction and working as a management consultant because wanting to help others in a particular tricky problem or moment that they might have and trying to lead a hand to that. And then more recently,

Absolutely.

Nicola Nation (: 35:24

Yeah, recognising the model of social enterprise and how businesses can be done for good. I'm really passionate about business. I've always been quite entrepreneurial and came from a family of self-employed people. So I've never been afraid of that kind of failure actually. It's like, yep, let's give this a go. know, my father and I and my brother, we had a coffee cart in my late teenage, early twenties that we took around to events and whatnot. And I was working full-time at Deloitte and part-time in the weekends in this coffee cart.

I had a newspaper run from a very young age. I left a corporate career to go contracting. And that was about, like I say, I wasn't concerned about the risky nature of that as others might have been. And then the opportunity to build purpose and agency into what I was doing. So a lot of people have said to me, you're so lucky working in a place that's purpose-led.

I must look at them with this look of bemusement. Like, how is that lucky? That's really intentional. And I never wake up in the morning and wonder which pieces of paper am I going to shuffle today and why. There's so much energy in that. And I look at people who perhaps are not doing that. And I would want to explore with them what's holding them back.

Yeah. What questions would you ask for someone who is maybe in metaphorical paper shuffling or literal paper shuffling, and maybe there's that sense of swirling or it's foggy rather than clear where they're going. How would you approach that conversation?

mean, gently, people have different complexities in their world and different pressures, but I'd be interested to understand their own internal narrative. And this is what we would look for when we were interviewing people, actually. What are your values? What's the thing in your life that you're most proud of? What's shaped you throughout your life journey? And then for where you are today, how do you see yourself moving?

Nicola Nation (: 37:27

somewhere that is perhaps more in line with your values because it's a values question, isn't it? That perhaps someone's feeling like their work is out of alignment or out of whack with the values. And let's say someone says, well, I'm a solo parent. have high expenses and I need to earn this amount of money. I'd say, yep, great. get that. Absolutely get that. How can you fulfill those values outside of work perhaps? How do you make your work container a smaller box and do something?

Yeah. So there's a nudge to agency again, isn't there really in everything you're saying there? There's a, so what choices have you got rather than I have to accept my lot? Yeah. And I'm curious about you said this sense of, or I want to go and lean into the world most of your life. I'm curious about when maybe some of that fog might've come for you or maybe your voice felt less. You felt like, what am I actually trying to do here?

And another way might be, not actually lost your way, but it felt like maybe it's like, I'm not quite sure where to go here on my voice. I don't know if I'm saying the right things. Maybe just, you know, periods of challenge or self doubt or confusion for you.

I'm wondering if I told you the story over coffee, Digby. I'm not sure, but... So... I recognised in myself that I starting to behave a bit badly. So I'd been working in procurement, contracting for quite some time. I had children over that period, so I'd dinner out, which really, really well, with the family and parental leave, and I could work part-time when I needed. And I...

me again.

Nicola Nation (: 39:08

was fortunate enough that I was invited back to a few places a few times. So was invited back to Kiwibank a couple of times, and I was invited back to what is now New Zealand government procurement a couple of times. I had led a very, very unpopular piece of work for government when I was quite young. I was in my early 30s, and I set up the external legal services panel contract, which meant that every lawyer in town had to respond to an RFP to get on the panel for government work.

I've been there.

Lawyers are an interesting breed who were at pains to tell me that this wasn't going to apply to them, that this was absolutely outrageous, that they weren't going to stoop so low as to write down on paper as to why they should be allowed to do government work. So I was hugely unpopular, personally. Then the other lawyers were taking me out for coffee and wining and dining me, which was really interesting, the two different approaches. Anyway, I led that piece of work.

quite successfully and the panels been refreshed and still in place and it's not perfect. But none of that is my concern. I set it up quite some time ago now. And now it's just the way business is done, right? But it was a big change process. And anyways, I've done that. And then fast forward, I don't know, maybe six, eight years, I can't remember. And I was back in government and I was working on this really large panel project and dah, dah, dah, dah. And I just recognised that I felt like a cog in a machine.

that I didn't have enough influence over the particular piece of work and how it was being run. And I had a disagreement with my senior about how we were doing this. And I was just like, that's it. I can't do this anymore. I can't be effective. I can't bring my best self to this opportunity because I don't have the autonomy to do it the way that I want. I'm being hit up against some objections that I don't agree with.

Nicola Nation (: 41:01

I can either fight this and actually damage myself and my sense of self, or I can go. And I say, it's time to go.

I admire the way that you were honest with yourself about that. My experience personally and also I see many, many others is they stay too long. When it's not a fit, there's a, perhaps it's a fear thing again, or it's a hope that it'll get better. Absolutely. What would your advice be?

I was earning really good money. So I looked out and I halved my salary. Yeah. Now that's scary. But what were my advice? I just sensed that I was going to continue to erode my sense of self and I could feel that happening. And I did feel a bit trapped because at the time we had quite large mortgages and we're doing some entrepreneurial things off to the side and my husband was setting up a business and we needed my wage and things. So I stuck in there until a point where I felt actually it's okay now we'll be able to figure it out. My advice would be

This sounds a bit cheesy, but it comes back to that find your why. Like, why are you there? And what are your options? And really push yourself on that. What really are your options?

Yeah, I like that. And there's something about also, and where is your no point? Yeah. Meaning the point at which you say, you know what, this is no longer sustainable for me. And I feel like if we can define that even really early on, that can help us stay grounded and focused. You know, kind of it's a metric really. Before we started, I asked you, know, what would make this a great conversation? And you said, I'd love

Digby Scott (: 42:37

It's not the word inspire, but there's something about, you know, for younger women to be inspired. think that's the word or there's something about that younger women to, to hear your story. Tell me if you were someone in their twenties or thirties or perhaps wherever we are in our life and you were giving advice to yourself or you were reminding yourself of what mattered around perhaps some of the questions that you and others ask it.

those younger stages, what advice, guidance, wisdom would you love to pass on?

One thing that I did quite well, and you and I share this experience, Digby, of working in the big chartered accountancy firms, is I took that opportunity to soak up every possible thing I could learn. And I treated that as an apprenticeship, and I absolutely loved it. I was surrounded by smart people who had some similar values to me, many different values. That was okay.

I took the opportunity to learn what I could from that environment, recognizing that I was going somewhere else. I didn't know where, but going somewhere else. So my advice to younger people would be to learn from others, to surround yourselves with smart people in an environment that's pushing you. And to find, you'd mentioned mentors, to find a mentor or two, to be brave and ask someone to be your mentor. What's the worst that could happen? They could say no, you might get a free lunch out of it.

And actually to continue to ask yourself that question, right? What's the worst that could happen here? And you will receive knockbacks. There will be knockbacks in your career. There's been a few times that I haven't been shortlisted for an interview. I've been quite shocked. my goodness, who is on your shortlist if it's not me?

Digby Scott (: 44:26

Yeah. Why can't they see my brilliance?

Why is this not jumped off the page? We'll receive not backs, you dust yourself off and pick yourself up and keep going. another thing that I really believe in, and we haven't touched on this actually, but I really believe that you can learn something from every single person you meet. You can learn someone from the person who's packing your groceries, right? One of the most influential people in my life.

was in my life for probably four to eight minutes. I was going for a run out at Kaitoki and I ran into this one and we were talking about breathing and she said, when you run, don't worry about breathing in, focus on breathing out. And she said, your body will always breathe in. And it changed my breathing technique for when I run. I was hugely influential. I don't know this person's name, never gonna meet them again.

But when you take that approach of curiosity into any given situation, you can learn something from anyone. And why wouldn't you? Why wouldn't you want to? And I think that that's something that has served me really well as well.

I love that. You know, it's the curiosity gene, isn't it? It's like, Oh, what could I learn from this person or this conversation? I was in a cafe this morning here in O'Koura and yeah, just talking to the barista, right? And just learning about his life and why he's here. And you know, it's the stories, but also the wisdom that that lady, that lady passed you on, just a nugget of wisdom. It's just, you got to be receptive to it. Hey, that's beautiful.

Digby Scott (: 46:09

This feels like a really nice place to bring things to a close. And the question I love to ask at the end of every conversation is what have you learned or been reminded of through our conversation?

as I started work in the year: 2000

and you overplay the parts that perhaps haven't gone your way or where you could have done things better. So my overall reflection is that there's a lot to be proud of and I'm really grateful for the opportunity to share that. It's really nice. So thank you.

It's standing on the shoulders of your own greatness. Isn't that right? It's to say, it's like, you know, we're not big noting that we're saying, Hey, I've done some good things and I've got some stuff to share and that's useful.

That's not very Kiwi.

Digby Scott (: 47:21

is not very key way. And it's really, really critical to be able to own, you know, it's not downplaying it, but it's not big noting it. It's saying, this is me. It's coming back to acceptance of you and the influence and impact and agency that you have. It's beautiful. What a lovely way to finish. If people wanted to reach out to you, how do they find you?

The absolute best way to get hold of me is to contact me through LinkedIn. Refer to my earlier comments. When I log into LinkedIn, I will be certain to get back to them.

Perhaps, yeah, when you logged in, which is great. I love that. That's one thing I'm to do. I'm going to practice logging out and just to see what that do, the extra bit of friction. That's brilliant. Nicola, it's been awesome. Thank you so much and we'll see you again soon.

Thanks, Jigby.

Digby Scott (: 48:18

I want to reflect on a couple of things just briefly from that conversation with Nicola. That first theme around agency and its cousin responsibility. And I reckon there's a fine line there between those two things that we need to recognise that we have agency and we have to exercise it. Yet we can only do the stuff that only we can do as leaders. And sometimes, and I know I'm guilty of this, as you heard,

that I can take too much responsibility and exercise maybe agency where I don't need to and maybe my agency is best used to delegate or allow the space at least for others to step in. And that's something that I'm wondering whether you wrestle with as well. know, if you're a leader listening to this, I suspect it's something familiar to you. Another thing that came up was this, you heard us say permission a lot and

I think that's a really important word, giving yourself permission and in particular giving yourself permission to be real and real means wobbly, real means vulnerable, real means not being on all the time and being gentle with yourself about that. if you combine agency, appropriate responsibility and permission, that's a pretty good combination to sustain your own leadership.

And some other things that came up too. Check out this idea of how we all know. If you haven't come across it before, listen to episode 17 with Derek Sivers and the idea of effectiveness over efficiency. My conversation with Simon Dowling all shines a real light on that idea. So dig into that one. And if you're curious about the fella I'm going sailing with in a few months time, his name's Andrew Maffet and he is...

my guest on episode four, check out his perspective on life there. If you liked this episode, then you probably like my weekly newsletter, which is also called Dig Deeper, where I'm writing about all of these themes. And you can get onto that list at digbescott.com forward slash subscribe, and you'll get the very next one. And if you love this episode also, I would love it if you would like it in your app or give it a review and

Digby Scott (: 50:37

definitely share it with someone else and get a conversation going. I'm Digby Scott, this is Dig Deeper, and until next time, go well.