24. The Man Behind the Microphone, Unhurried Productivity, and the Power of ‘I-Matter’ Conversations | Digby Scott

Digby Scott (: 00:00

So I reckon, and I see this in my work all the time, the most effective leaders will spend a good amount of time investing in what I call I matter conversations. And I matter conversations is the person on the other side of that conversation with the leader feels like they matter.

Digby Scott (: 00:29

What if stepping into someone else's shoes isn't just about empathy, but a gateway to discovering parts of yourself that you never knew existed? Today the tables are turned as I step into the guest chair of my own podcast. My friend, Antonia Milkop takes the host role, leaving me feeling both awkward and excited. Awkward because I was putting on a new hat and excited because I love not knowing where a conversation might lead.

And through this experience, I gained such a deeper empathy for what my guests might feel when they join me on Dig Deeper. Antonia draws out my perspectives on being unhurriedly productive, my journey from being a people pleaser to someone who stands for something, and why embracing discomfort might be the gateway to our most significant growth. Whether you're wrestling with busyness or simply curious about the person behind the podcast, this conversation offers a glimpse behind the curtain that

change how you think about creating space for what truly matters. Hi, I'm Digby Scott, and this is Dig Deeper, a podcast where I have conversations with depth that will change the way you lead.

you

Antonia Milkop (: 01:46

Kia ora Digby. Today is a little bit of a different day, hey, because I'm Antonia Milkop, your Digby Scott, and this podcast, this episode is all about you. So my first question for you is, I've got about three of them and I'm going to pick one. How do you feel differently showing up to this compared to when somebody else is in the, I guess, the interviewee seat?

Hi.

Digby Scott (: 02:13

mostly awkward and a little bit excited, I would say. The awkward is about that I'm not used to this so much, particularly on my podcast. I'm not used to it at all. And it feels like I'm consciously having to put a new hat on. And, you know, I empathize with leaders that are having to this all the time. Who's my audience? What's the role I need to play? And

You've invited me to do this. And I said, yes. And I'm feeling like, so how do I be a guest? I think it's actually going to help me develop even more empathy for my guests by sitting in this chair in this way. So that's cool. And the excited bit is that I don't know where it's going to go. And I love that about conversations. And I love that about every podcast I do, whether I'm the host or

the guest as well. It's like, let's see what unfolds. And I love discovery. And I think that comes with awkwardness, right? So long answer to the question, awkward and excited. And as I talk, increasingly more excited and slightly less awkward.

I love that. And I love the fact neither of us have any idea where this could go. But the reason I asked this is because I'm listening to these podcasts and I've known you for a few years. And I'm like, Digby, I think your listeners might want to hear a bit about you. Can we help them hear that? We can go into know what made you start doing this and everything. But I think there's a lot of questions. What's something you think others

don't really know about you publicly.

Digby Scott (: 04:01

that my middle name is Purrdom. That's a lazy answer.

It's a very lazy. Maybe ask it in a different way. What's something that's often misunderstood about you?

Okay. That's a great question. Okay. Now, so I have this brand, I think of being this lifestyle guy, right? I'm off doing the surfing trips and you know, Digby, you're always on holidays, which I think is a bit of a falsehood. What is true is that I prioritize time off busyness.

And I've designed my life crafted, I think is the word. I really like this word crafting. I've crafted very, very deliberately a life that allows me to live my values, which one of them is adventure and discovery. And so, you know, I've used that word already in this conversation. So I think sometimes I come across maybe in some people's minds as cruisy and

Just like, yeah, all laid back and you know, I'm doing these things, which I feel it doesn't resonate with my experience of me, which is I work my ass off and I'm constantly making trade-offs for where I'm putting my energy and time. And that's not just me. It's also

Digby Scott (: 05:36

the people that are closest to me that I want to serve and to support and to help family, partner, other people I love, clients, you know, and there's always this decision, okay, where do I go next? But I think the thing for me behind both of those sides of me, the busy, very focused, because I can hyper focus big time and this other image of me doing these trips, which is the away time and et cetera.

is intentionality and choicefulness. And that's what I stand for, I reckon. So what people don't understand, I think, is they see the surface. Maybe it's the Facebook thing or the Insta thing or whatever. Yet that is such a small surface level interpretation of a life that to me comes from. I burned out when I was 30.

So it's like the early midlife crisis, which I, at the time, you know, I wasn't laughing about it like I do now, but the midlife crises experiences, I think tend to have a, an impact of reevaluation. And I got to do that really early, which, you know, I don't wish it upon anyone, but there's this, how do I want my life to be? Not even what do I want in my life, but how do I want to live my life? And that's.

now kind of formed an operating system. It's a long answer to your question.

There's a lot of sincerity to it.

Digby Scott (: 07:14

Thank you. Of course.

And I think it's useful for, cause people who know you, who work alongside you see those, hard work. Is there something you think in your past that you were trying to prove to the world?

yeah.

What would that be?

that I'm worthy, worthy and worth it and worth investing in. The reason I burned out, think is because I had a boss that I didn't want to let down. Well, there was actually a couple of reasons. One is this boss. I was running this business in New Zealand and he was in head office in London and I really, really admired him as a bit of a role model. And we had a real strong medium of minds on so many things.

Digby Scott (: 08:03

His name is Ben Anderson and he was a person that I drove myself for because I knew he did believe in me and I didn't want to let him down. You know, but the other part was pure ego on, Hey, I'm national manager and there was this, so I better show the world that I'm bloody good, or at least I'm worthy of this title. And I really had no idea what I was doing. I was in over my head.

When the opportunity came out to take that role, it was pretty much ego that was in the driver's seat. There was this, look, you're going to have this fancy title and a bigger salary. And you get to fly around the place and you're the boss and you get to make all the shots, call the shots and all of this stuff. So there was this proving to myself that I was up for the job, but it was, you know, in adult development, they call it the socialized mind, which is

I was really doing it so other people could go, yeah, look at you go, rather than genuinely to go, well, what am I about? And what are my superpowers that I can bring to the world more? didn't back myself. didn't believe in myself at that age. I was more of a look, well, I'll show you what I can do in almost a conformative sense as in, well, the successful people have titles like these and.

I learned after that that, yeah, that's what other successful people might have, but not me. And that was the turning point. It's a really lovely question, right? It certainly had lots to prove, which is at that age, I think is pretty common too, right?

Yeah. For me, it was 21. I was. And I was a chartered accountant back then as well. Well, not back, remember? Yeah, the core people all start as a chartered accountant. like, what on are you doing? I wasn't actually a charter, I never got to the bit where I became a chartered accountant. Aspiring. Aspiring. Yeah. And you talked about that boss, Ben Anderson, did you say? Ben Anderson. Yeah. So like a role model. Who in your life has helped you dig deeper?

Digby Scott (: 09:49

Was it? Tell me.

Digby Scott (: 10:16

well, he certainly did. He helped me find motivation when I was really struggling by showing that he believed in me. And so if you think about digging deeper in terms of digging into your own motivation and your own kind of like will and your drivers and all that, I dug deep into myself to, yeah, I can do this. Right. I think though it was interesting because I almost became a bit dependent on him to give me that.

rather than kind of have it self generating. I mean, I don't think it was a bad thing yet. You know, he was the guy who I had to hear from to tell me that I was, you know, I could do this. Certainly him. It's funny. I reckon there's other people that I would call them the tough love folks that there was this guy. I was on the executive coaching panel for one of Australia's big banks quite a long time ago now. And

There was his lead coach and his name was Craigy McPhee and he looked a little bit like Sean Connery in his latter years and sort of gruff like Sean Connery and he was the lead coach and he gave me some feedback one time that was really uncomfortable to hear. You know, to be honest, I can't even remember what it was about. I was standing in my backyard in Perth and I remember

Where were you at the time?

Digby Scott (: 11:43

taking the phone call, remember exactly, you could point me to the square meter where I was standing when I took the phone call. And he gave me some really tough feedback, but he did it in an exemplary way, you know, like good feedback, really clear, very specific, relating to a specific behavior that he'd seen me do, all the things you do when you do good feedback. But it wasn't comfortable feedback. And...

The reason I say he served me is because it was one of those pivotal moments that really caused me to stop on my tracks and really have a damn good look at myself to go, you know what? Yeah, that's a fair cop, mate. You need to pay attention to that. Because often I think, you know, there's a friend of mine, Georgia Murch, she makes a distinction between being nice and being kind.

And being nice is when you're not giving the feedback because it's, you might upset them or you, might be uncomfortable to do it or whatever. But being kind is actually letting people know. And this guy, Craig, he let me know for sure. Yeah. We didn't have a close relationship. It was a professional relationship for a certain context. He played his role so well and you know, that reverberate. So it's funny, right? Because we often think about people support us.

that you have to have some sort of long-term relationship. But I don't think you do. I think some people come in and out of your lives for a reason. And I think for me, that was the reason he was there. And yeah, I'm grateful for that. Because I could say, my parents supported me. Yes, yes, yes. All of those things. It's funny where my mind goes, though, right?

But the memories are the bits that stick and you can even remember that square foot. It's interesting, isn't it? There's kind of pivotal moments in life.

Digby Scott (: 13:36

Pivotal people and pivotal moments. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then there's people that are the long-term. I think we need them in our lives too. The ones who can see you unfolding and they're interested in your unfolding, if that makes sense. know, I the image of that, right? And yeah, Simon Dowling, who's been a recent guest on the podcast, he lives in Melbourne.

seismic shifts.

Digby Scott (: 14:04

He's doing some work in Auckland and he flew down to Wellington last night just to hang out. And we spent the morning together this morning, walking around the new suburb I'm living in. And it was this lovely familiarity of each of us giving the other plenty of air time to talk, to do some sense making, to share stuff and giving each other feedback. You know, was giving him some feedback about how I've seen him change. You know, he was going through some kind of asking some big questions.

about his work and I said, I'm not hearing those questions anymore. You know, isn't that cool to have people who can link you back to an earlier version of yourself? And I think we need those people.

You're making me think of a very good question. You know, in New Zealand, we're quite a small country where leaders tend to attract or they're of like magnets for talent that have known them over the course of time. So there's the friendships or the connections that we've had that are long, long-term connections, like your friend that you've just spoken about. There's a synchronization that you just get each other and you know, and there's this kind of

Yeah.

Antonia Milkop (: 15:14

implicit trust of being able to love, correct, be, challenge, you know, and you get it. When I think of leaders who have really successful in my little sphere of the universe is those ones that have people who've known them for time or people I've worked with in the past who can talk to me for two minutes. And I get what they're saying is if they had talked to me for 20 minutes, cause I'm mapping it and I'm sense making it to who they are.

what they need based on past. There's a bit of assumption making there, but it's still got fresh curiosity in it because you've got the trust already. doesn't take the same energy to get there. So my question is, what do you notice how leaders who are new to a place, how can they create that trust and curiosity in the flowing way that you get with much longer term relationships?

There's less friction, right?

Digby Scott (: 16:11

cool question. Cameron Fink quoted me. I'm dropping all these names. Check these out listeners. Cameron Fink. He quoted me on a LinkedIn post this morning. He goes, as Dick B Scott says, meet them where they're at. Yeah. And yeah, some people say meet them where they are. I'll give you an example. I wouldn't necessarily call it a leadership situation, but you know, leading from any chair, right?

I love that.

Digby Scott (: 16:39

So this morning I'm starting to do some work with an executive team, which is a long-term piece of work on their team development. And as part of that, I'm doing calls with each of the executive one-on-one just to get to know them and get their take on things. And I had a call with one of them this morning, actually this afternoon. And it was the last person in the team that I met and all the others gone really, really well.

So, oh, good rapport. This is great. Yeah, we media minds all this. And I did it on on teams. Turn the screen on. He comes on and he's got this face like he's just been sucking a lemon, you know, and I said, hey, and I won't name his name. But said, hey, nice to meet you. And he's like, yeah. Oh, OK. Part of the purpose of this call, you know, I didn't say this, I'm thinking this.

is to make a strong connection and start to build some trust. And I said, so what's your understanding of why we're talking? And he's like, oh, yeah, the CEO has told us a bit about it. You know, what I've seen in the emails. And that was it. This is going to be an interesting time.

You of all people can draw someone out.

By the end of the call, he was like, yeah, I've got your measure. This will work. This will be good. Let's do this work. It took about 45 minutes to get there. Actually, I don't think it took that long. But my approach is meeting where they're at. So the first thing I did is to say, because he said, I'll come a bit jaded about all of these sort of conversations. I've done plenty of them before. I'm like, okay, so what causes you to

Digby Scott (: 18:21

be jaded, like, what don't you like about this sort of stuff? he goes, you know, well, people try to analyze me. And I'm like, so, okay, let's just stop. I'm not an analyst. And then I told him a story about why I'm there because the CEO I'd worked with in a previous, when he was the CEO of previous organization, and I he's brought me in because what we did there worked really well. And here's my approach. I said, look, you know, I'm not here to psychoanalyze. I'm not here to enable gaze. We're not doing kumbaya. We're here to get business results.

And my job is to create the space for you guys to have the conversations in a high quality way and build relationships between each other so you can drive the business forward. And you're like, oh, OK. And then I just said, so tell me about your view on what the business needs. And blah, blah, blah. And off we went. And I just let him talk. And so this is a long-winded way of saying meet him where they're at essentially means put them in the center and talk about what matters to them.

I'll give you another example. I used to do lots and lots of 360 degree feedback sessions.

Before you go into that, can I just say the other thing you did is you explained why you were there. So you could meet him where he was at, because he didn't know how to engage with you.

Yeah, why I'm there and also my how the way I work would help him get what he needs. And I also, by the way, I changed my tone of voice, so I dropped it because he was speaking like this. And, you know, I use some of his vernacular and it's all of those subtle little things I think is really important. And this is meeting where they're at, not just in terms of the topic of conversation, but the style of conversation. And to me,

Antonia Milkop (: 19:46

Yeah.

Digby Scott (: 20:08

That's key. I, so this other story is worth telling. think I was doing some work in Papua New Guinea and Port Moresby, and it was for a big oil and gas company. And they wanted us, me and a colleague, we'd been flown there from Perth to do all these 360 degree debriefs of all of the leaders that were in the country for this company. And my first person off the, I was off the plane into the head office in Port Moresby.

And the first person I was doing the debrief was with this head of HR for the country. And I walked into his office, one those big power desks, know, like massive desk and giant chair. And behind him is this major view of Port Moresby Harbour. And he's sitting there in his desk and there's this tiny little chair, kind of a plastic chair on the other side of the desk for me. Anyway, so I sit down there, not intimidated at all.

And I said, okay, so we're here to talk about your 360 reports. And he picks up the reporting as, you mean this and he throws it and it goes past my head and it hits the wall behind me and falls in the bin. And I reckon he'd been practicing that.

And he screwed it up or was it a frisbee

Big fat report. Yeah. don't know how I think he'd been doing anyway. And I'm like, I've got 90 minutes with this guy. He's the head of HR. How am going to do this? So I looked around the office and there was all these posters of golfers like Tiger Woods was up there and all the famous people at the time. And then there was this putter in the bin that had been snapped in half. I'm like, I'm a picture of this guy. And I, so I said, you like golf, do you?

Digby Scott (: 21:54

And that was my first response to the after the throw. And he goes, Oh, do you play? I said, yeah, I'm known to have a go. I do play a little bit of golf. so we talked about golf for about 45 minutes. He's raving all about the courses and the membership fees are too high. And I'm just listening. And after 45, 50 minutes, he goes, can we go up on the roof? I'm yeah, because I just want to have a smoke.

So we went up on the roof and then he just spills his guts. It's just all of the stuff came out about, yeah, my boss doesn't understand me these results, he doesn't see the full picture, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, all right, now we're getting somewhere. He trusts me to open up and again, meet him where they're at. So I reckon, and I see this in my work all the time, the most effective leaders will spend

a good amount of time investing in what I call I matter conversations. And I matter conversations is the person on the other side of that conversation with the leader feels like they matter in the eyes of the person they're talking to. This is not about the work matters. It's not about how do I grow or what do we improve. It's like, I reckon it's about being seen and being heard.

So I reckon I matter conversations if you knew and you wanting to build a relationship, make them feel like they matter. And this isn't being disingenuine, give them a damn good listening to, you know?

I love that is that you had, I guess, the wisdom at the moment time when he chucked that fat report in the bin to have patience just to connect with this person without worrying about having to do what you needed to do with the team. You connected first before anything else.

Digby Scott (: 23:54

connection before content as they say, right? It's the human connection before the...

Do you think there's more of an impatience in our society? We've got more impatience around that now? Yeah.

Yeah, I one of the things, you know, I talk a lot about unhurried productivity and it to me, where that idea, the rubber hits the road with that is not about taking a month off and going surfing or whatever. It's how do you create space and recognize that the real work isn't necessarily the work on top. The real work is the work of making connection. So the work on top can get done better.

You just described what defines great leaders who recognize that is one of the attributes of being able to do that with their people, you know?

Yeah. And it's not a binary either or, right? It's not like, the work doesn't get done. It's an end, right? It's, know, in all the leadership research will say one of the primary tensions for any leader is the tension between one end of a spectrum is relationship and the other end is task. And it's not about prioritizing one over the other as you're leaning. It's about being able to make it an end. And sometimes in the short term,

Digby Scott (: 25:15

Yeah, you put relationship first because otherwise task isn't going to have a chance in hell of getting done. I'm a reform people pleaser. You know, I'm really good with people and an earlier younger version of me is the one that was driven by the fear of upsetting people or not being approved of. And so I'd play it safe and I'd be all nicey nicey and smiley. But

That has severe limitations on what happens in terms of achievement and getting stuff done because we're all happy happy.

What reformed you?

question. Actually, again, coming back to pivotal moments was some really chunky feedback. I actually did a chunky 360 where probably for the first time in life, it gave me language around the language of complying and seeking approval and all of those things and basically staying safe. And it helped me understand some stories and assumptions I've been making about what it meant to be successful that were

kind of outdated. mean, they'd served me. And honestly, that seeking approval and avoiding being told off, that was something that was there, I think, from a very, very young age. You know, my dad was, when I was a young kid, quite an intimidating person. And being told off by him was terrifying. And that carried through. I avoided hanging out or working with senior male people in authority.

Digby Scott (: 26:54

for a very long time early in my career, was really, there was some deep wiring that was driving me. So I avoided to stay safe. And once I got that feedback that was like, you know what, that's okay, but it's not leadership. Yeah, it'll keep you safe, but it's not leadership. And to rewire to say, you're again, coming back to George's terms of like being nice versus being kind. The kind thing to do is to stand up and be more authentically courageous.

and speak your piece and the more I practice that the more I got evidence that actually yeah I feel bigger and more alive by being more courageous. Now it's sort of more of a it'll be an uncomfortable conversation but it's the right conversation I'm good with that. Not all the time. I'm not perfect. I definitely go into avoidance.

That's why I like the word practicing.

What do you mean?

is this active, it's why I'm practicing. So it's like an active language. It's also the other thing I really appreciate about you is this kind of contagious curiosity that you have. Nothing's ever learned. It's an ongoing continual curiosity. It's not being curious. It's an alive curiosity that's kind of infectious to others as well. And I've noticed in some of the episodes I've listened to on this podcast, it's just every conversation has a refreshing new.

Antonia Milkop (: 28:20

curiosity depending on who's in the room, the time of day that you're talking, what's on your minds. There's always this yearning for something new to emerge.

Yeah, I think I'm known by lots of people as the guy who says, I'm wondering about.

yeah. that's the one that's I'm wondering. You should do a little like how many times have I said, you know, little statistics on your podcast. I'm wondering about what are you wondering about? What do you hope or dream that might be happening as a result of you helping others dig deeper and have really what I call, you know, they're not shiny conversations. They're authentic conversations that are very

honest and raw and relaxing to listen to as well as this kind of challenge in there as well. Then everyone's different.

Thank you. What am I hoping? When I set up the Dig Deeper podcast, it's sort of a reflection on my philosophy that I think every conversation can be a learning conversation. Maybe not everyone here. I'm going to the shop. Could be. Would you like any milk? No? Okay, I'll learn that. But the idea of this podcast is that you're learning, I'm learning, the listener's learning. And what I hope is that

Antonia Milkop (: 29:23

Also it can be a learning process.

Digby Scott (: 29:39

that learning is a either a reinforcement of keep doing what you're or it's a stop you in your tracks to go huh maybe there's a different way I'm all about not necessarily new for new sake but there's always opportunity to just examine is there a better way to do this or a different way of doing this I had a lovely conversation with a fellow last week he's part of a

global leadership development organization and just talking about maybe I associate with them in some way. And he was telling me about a lot of what they're trying to do. You know, so they're working with some pretty significant, very influential leaders in the top of their game in big organizations and government, essentially around the world. And he's saying, look, if we can do our work really, really well, this leadership development stuff.

then that can have a significant impact on things like climate change, on inequality, all of the big issues that the world's facing. And I like to think that it all starts with conversations where you stop and you have people think just a little bit more consciously, get off autopilot and onto manual for a bit. I used to write a

column for a newspaper in Perth, a business newspaper called Business News WA. And, you know, was 800 words a week. And my mantra was, I don't want people to say I liked that. I want people to say that got me thinking. Because if I think if we can circuit break our default modes and just go, huh.

Why am I doing it that way? Is that what I'm really trying to achieve? And those sort of questions. Then I think we can be, I have this lovely saying, awareness brings choice. And if we go to awareness about the choices we have, then we can choose different things. And man, we need some different choices for how we lead, where we put our energy, our focus, policy decisions we're making, all of those things. Does that make sense?

Digby Scott (: 32:05

I'm hoping that makes sense.

It makes sense to me. Does it make sense to people listening? Because I'm like, I'm so glad people like you exist in the world because if your energy is helping people think a little bit differently, hopefully they'll do something differently as a result. My energy is focused. I love it when people do something differently. If you have like the service in the world of you're helping people think, reframing thinking, then they're going to like the action is going to be different. And then the people are going to feel different.

Yeah, yeah.

Antonia Milkop (: 32:37

And they're going to make different, you know, it's the catalytic thing. Yeah.

I'm with you on that.

Yeah, yeah, I'll start if I'm running a master class or a workshop, I will usually start with, all right, get a piece of paper out and draw a column down the middle of it. Right. And then on the left hand side, put insights at the top and on the right hand side, put actions and.

As we go through this session, you're going to have a bunch of insights. All these ideas are going to spark. Now write them down as you go, because the start of this session will seem like a long time ago when we get to the end of the session. But insights by themselves are useless. Insights are useful when you experiment. You put something into action. You know I love that word experiment. So I say, as you write an insight down on the right hand side, what could I do?

with this. How could I apply this? Is it in the team meeting tomorrow? You could try this idea. You know, might be asking different questions. All right, cool. That's the idea. What question might you ask in the team meeting tomorrow? That's when it's applied. And I'm all about that too. Like, yeah, let's make, we don't want to just be talking for talking sake. What are gonna do differently? So thanks for bringing that up because we need different thinking, but we then need to lead into that with different action. Yeah, that's cool.

Antonia Milkop (: 34:00

One thing I worry about is the, you know, especially in places that we see in say public sector, Wellington is there's so much, busyness and I know you've got so much wisdom to share around unhurried productivity. And when there's things around people focusing so much on doing, they stop thinking or they not stop, they're inhibiting, they're drowning out the thinking because of so much doing.

And I do think both need the balance of each other.

Yeah, absolutely. It's funny, right? Because this unhurried productivity stuff, people hear the word unhurried and they think, well, nothing will happen because you're just going too slow. Yeah. And I say unhurried to state of mind more than the state of movement, that it's about a hurried mind full of clutter is you're going to find it very hard to get anything worthwhile done. Sometimes it's useful.

Go to the beach and surf.

Digby Scott (: 35:03

Right? No question. But learning how to create a little bit of space, it might be one minute every hour, right? Or, you know, the Pomodoro technique, you know, 25 minutes, five minute break, that sort of thing. It doesn't have to be take a week off every quarter or anything like that. It's more about the discipline of valuing spaciousness and letting go. And I think we're so driven.

by the stuff I was driven by when I was that national manager when I was 30, which is driven. If I'm not seen to be busy, then I'm not valuable. I just delivered a keynote to an HR conference yesterday on being valuable as HR doesn't mean being busy as HR. And was all about this idea of being a host more than a hero. And the idea isn't to just be navel gazing.

It's about knowing what to say yes to and being courageous enough to say no to everything else and know that you're never going to get it all right. But valuing being okay with not being busy. My partner is incredible, Gillian with this. You know, if her work's done for the day at two o'clock, she'll go for a walk. Yeah, she's very inspiring. He's pouring with rain. She sent me a note. I was on a call. She sent me notes saying

She's out now.

Digby Scott (: 36:31

I'm just going for a in the rain for an hour. See you later. Yeah, it is. very inspiring.

I love that.

Antonia Milkop (: 36:40

I'm jealous of that because I'm like, I wish I was driven like that. And then I've spoken to people who go, I wish I was driven more like you, you know, they want to be, they're that, I just love sitting down and reading a book when I've got a whole bunch of other things to do. And I'm like, I wish I could be more like that.

We're products of a culture though, right? And I think our organization cultures have this short-termism that doesn't really allow for spaciousness.

unless the people inside it let it.

Yeah. And particularly the leaders who can set the tone, you know, how do we send a message that values outcomes over activity and how do we send a message that says, you know what you said no to all of those things. Good on you. You know, it's how do you set that tone? And I think by doing that and measuring that you still have incredible outcomes as a result of a different way of operating again,

Short circuit the thinking, try some new ways, do some pilots. I'm working with a couple of companies at the moment that are piloting unhurried productivity techniques for their teams. And early days. But the idea is we're capturing some metrics, doing some baseline stuff. And if that's working well, then those stories will be told across the organization. Not just the training, but the stories of it. And this is what we need, more stories of that. Yeah.

Antonia Milkop (: 38:11

I love that as we come into land, because we could be talking, we could talk for so long. What question would you love me to be asking you right now?

You're like, wish I could share this with my listeners or...

I ask that question sometimes when I'm coaching people. God. I don't know. It is. I think it's a great question.

question.

Antonia Milkop (: 38:37

What's the top of mind question that you've got humming in your brain as you're going out of this? What are you wondering about?

think it's about how do I be and how do we be more okay with discomfort, messiness, confusion. And this is reverberating after a conversation I had a couple of days ago with Jennifer Garvey-Burger, who's a leadership specialist. And we talked about this idea that I think what leaders try to do a lot of the time is provide

Clarity and certainty and the script is that's my job when we're going through change my job is to provide certainty And when Jennifer and I talked about this idea the other day She was saying you know what now I reckon we need to look embrace confusion and messiness and uncertainty because we're forced to Challenge

some of our assumptions and maybe some stories and maybe we're forced to rewire at least think about rewiring and on the other side of that confusion can come growth rather than, my God, wait till this confusion and uncertainty goes away. We'll get back to normal in inverted commas. I mean, I don't like it. I don't think any of us like it, but it doesn't, it's not about liking it. It's about valuing it and

I'm left with this question. So how do we shift the story, the narrative around the journey of change in a way that it's kind of like the heats part of it, you know, the messiness part of it. So I don't have an answer to it. I think the thing I can do is notice how I respond to it and the choices I have just moved house. That was a really good example of messiness and confusion and emotional uncertainty, all sorts of things going on there.

Antonia Milkop (: 40:43

think you're onto something. I think that's a good question to be asking. And it's something that there's metrics when we're talking about things that can be measured. There's metrics that are being collected around what those who work with the leaders really, really need. And the biggest outstanding statistic that's come out recently is hope. They don't need stability as much. They don't need compassion as much. They need hope and then trust. It's a whole gallop.

their new Gallup thing, I think the last time they did it was about a decade ago. But there's something in that around how can leaders help people not feel comfortable, but to be okay with discomfort and messiness. And it's almost like as a parent, I'm trying to constantly help role modelists or help my kids understand that life is really messy. There is no predictability about it and that's okay.

A bit like our conversation. Yeah. We're like, we don't know where this is going to go. How cool. Yeah. I think we do need hope. Yeah. Hope by itself. what did Napoleon say? Hope's not a strategy, but without hope, what's the point? Yeah. And I think, you know, leaders are dealers in hope. That's a classic old quote, right? You know, I think is really, really true, but it's also leaders. They're not Pollyanna hopers. They're grounded hopers.

dear, yeah.

Digby Scott (: 42:07

You know, and it's kind of like, yeah, and this is messy and hard, right? Yeah. And this is what I'm finding out. I think that's a really powerful question for a leader to say, you know, this is hard. I've actually wrote it. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that endears us more. I was like, you're human too. Okay. Yeah.

You're honest with it.

Antonia Milkop (: 42:28

What have you learned? what have you learned about yourself, given that this is a focus on you? What have you learned about yourself in the last half hour of your life?

That's the question. I always finish the question.

Digby Scott (: 42:37

I feel like one thing I've been reminded of is when I'm open and vulnerable, then I feel more alive. What about you? What have you learned in this conversation?

I've learned that there's this kind of desire in me, I love data, and there's desire in me to help shifts in the kind of good change that we want to see get measured better, to help the world see things a little bit differently because of the evidence that's so blatantly obvious, but we're not really measuring it. Cool. I don't know why that's come up, but that's the top of mind. the thing that from me is,

I've really enjoyed being a listener and sitting back and being the one is my comfort space, you know.

Can I say the other side of a coin from listening is questioning and I reckon your questions are brilliant.

I do any of that, I prepared.

Digby Scott (: 43:36

Oh, the world is uncertain. How about that? We don't know what's going to happen. Yeah, no, that's awesome. Thank you. Thanks for the invitation for doing this. It's, you know, it's a cool experiment.

Thanks for saying yes. It is a cool experiment. I reckon landing on the question of, wonder what your listeners have thought differently as a result of listening to this. Let Digby know.

Thanks Antonia.

Thanks, Degree.

Antonia Milkop (: 44:09

I so enjoyed this conversation I with Digby today. And I'm so glad that he said yes to the invitation of saying, can I interview you for your podcast? And I guess the thing I've noticed through this conversation is there is a lot more to Digby Scott than the surface shows. the bit that I would have loved to have dug deeper on was the beginning around

what other people might misunderstand about him. So I think there's so much more and I think it's we find out about each other through the conversations we have with one another, whether it's someone who's hosting a conversation or someone who's contributing, being the interviewee. And as I carry on listening to different podcasts and episodes, I'm curious to figure out what more can we find out about the kind of

you

Antonia Milkop (: 45:05

the fresh edge in leaders that Digby's going to be able to draw out of them because of the way he listens and the way that he questions others.

Digby Scott (: 45:22

And following on from Antonia's reflections, one big reflection for me is that idea of empathy. know, meet them where they're at. And that other idea of stand in the other's shoes. And that's what I was getting to do today. you know, being asked some questions that really made me think. And I reckon I'll carry forward that empathy even more so for future guests.

When I'm interviewing, having conversations, it'll be like, what's this like for them? I think perhaps it's a lesson for all of us, allowing people to process a question. Because Antonia's questions really, know, someone rocked me in my chair. I'm like, how do I answer that? And

I think sometimes we're asking questions, maybe expecting an immediate answer of someone, but maybe they need some time to process. So what about if we practiced, including me, just allowing a little bit more space after a question, just like I'm modeling now. If this episode's got you thinking, maybe rocking back in your chair, I reckon you'd also enjoy Episode 14 with Adam Cooper and Episode 18.

with Simon Dowling, two guys who really show vulnerability and really are willing to dig deeper themselves. So check them out. If you also like this, you will probably like my newsletter, Dig Deeper, which comes out every week. It's practical, insightful, hopefully, ideas, little nuggets that you can use to make your day a bit easier if you're leading people, trying to make change happen, or just live life deliberately. Check it out at digbyscott.com.

I'm Digby Scott and this is Dig Deeper and until next time, go well.