13. Breaking Out of Boxes, Constructive Challenge, and the Gift of Heritage | CO2 Rob Pa'o

Digby (: 00:01

My guest today is CO2 Rob Pa'o. Rob's heritage is Samoan. He's a first generation immigrant to New Zealand and was brought up in the predominantly white city of Christchurch. And growing up in this environment as someone who didn't necessarily look like most other people there strongly shaped how Rob made sense of who he is, which I'm sure we'll get into. Rob and I first met when he was a participant on an emerging senior leader program for one of New Zealand's public sector agencies. And back then,

He struck me as someone who has a strong sense of who he is, yet with a deep curiosity to keep learning and growing. And when I sit down with Rob, I feel seen, I feel heard, and I feel invited to be bigger. It's a powerful experience. And I'd say that Rob continues to emerge as a senior leader and his influence and impact has certainly grown since I first met him. Rob, I'm really looking forward to this conversation. Welcome to the show.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 01:01

Thanks, Digby. Kia ora talofa lava. Thank you very much for the invitation. I look forward to yet another one of our chats.

Digby (: 01:10

This is one where we press record rather than not. And hopefully there's a lot of gold that comes out for everyone listening. I want to start with your name. Like mine, know, like Digby is not a name that you hear very often. And neither is CO2. So can you just shed some light on where that comes from, what that's about?

(Rob) Pa'o (: 01:14

Yeah.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 01:22

Right.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 01:36

Yeah, sure. So my mother's family, they have a kind of ritual or a practice of giving their eldest child or eldest boy a unique name. So my mother came here, you know, in search of a new life, etc. Was at school, going to night school and she was doing classes and...

She's doing some sciences and she was pregnant and she kind of, you know, looked around at some of the stuff around the science class, I guess, and thought, yeah, maybe some of the stuff on the tables could be, you know, a good name for my son. So it was, it was either acid, neon or CO2. So I think I did all right to be fair.

Digby (: 02:24

You did all right. least it wasn't H2SO4 or one of those more complicated.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 02:29

Yeah. It would just be H, wouldn't it, if it was that.

Digby (: 02:33

And, and has it ever sort of had a, a spin off or, know, has it had like, you know, do you make jokes of it or does it kind of, do you have a play with it every, every now and then?

(Rob) Pa'o (: 02:46

yeah, I don't know about me. think growing up, yeah, kids love to have fun with it. So it was the age of star wars, you know, so I got the R2D2, the C3PO's, you know, all that kind of stuff. But, gets shorter in my circle, the longer you know me, you know, so my really close friends call me C.

Digby (: 03:11

rot.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 03:12

Yeah, and people that kind of know me call me CEO. No one calls me CEO too, like in full. Unless they're trying to make a joke or something. But that's pretty much how that rolls.

Digby (: 03:21

Yeah, that's interesting. I met your wife for the first time the other night and she referred to you as CEO. So she's not in that really in a circle where it's C or maybe that's just not the public vision.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 03:26

All right, Yeah, yeah. She was talking to you,

Digby (: 03:37

That's true. Right. Yeah. So she had to have a little bit of distance. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. That's funny. Right. Yeah. As a kid, you get that all that kind of teasing. I have two middle names and the second one of those is Purdom and my full name is Digby Ross Purdom Scott. And that goes back way back to like the fifteen hundreds or something when a Robert Scott married a Mary Purdom and it kind of carried on. And the eldest child always had Purdom in the in their

(Rob) Pa'o (: 03:51

Mm.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 04:02

Never heard that.

Digby (: 04:06

somewhere in their name and I got ruthlessly teased for that weird name, know, let alone having Digby. So at least we bond around this stuff, eh? When I first met you though, you didn't call yourself CO or CO2, it was Rob.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 04:08

Right.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 04:14

Chuck Stewart. Purdom.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 04:23

No, yeah, that's right. Yeah. Did you want to hear something about that? Yeah. So, in my job, you know, working with individuals quite risky, that are quite risky. was kind of really at the time that the internet, social media, et cetera, really was really taking off.

Digby (: 04:25

Yeah.

Digby (: 04:29

I'm curious,

(Rob) Pa'o (: 04:43

And I realized I'm looking at all my profiles. was like, shucks, I'm a pretty easy guy to find. So I just started using my middle name of work. And it just kind of stuck since then. But recently it's, yeah, recently it feels like it's the right time. I'm not really in that type of work or exposed to that type of risk anymore. it feels like.

Digby (: 04:58

Yeah.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 05:10

using my actual name is probably what I should start doing at work, you know, as well as in my real life.

Digby (: 05:18

Yeah. Yeah. And I'm also wondering whether this just a more of an owning of it too. You know, you get to a certain point in life. What's that? This is who I am. This is my name.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 05:29

That's a really, that's a really good point as well. Yes. I think that is also, there's also been a sense of that as well. maybe not, maybe not quite as articulate as you're putting it. think it's more of a, it's been more of a quite a stock. Who is this Rob guy? You know, you go home, you're with your cousins, you're with your aunties. Like no one calls you that. know, you're kind of, Hmm. Yeah. Okay.

Digby (: 05:57

Yeah.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 05:58

It's probably about the right time to get back into it.

Digby (: 06:02

That's opening up a lovely door. Who is this Rob guy? Who is this Rob guy? It's a big question, right? It's it's actually you just mentioned your work and for anyone listening, how would you describe what your work is?

(Rob) Pa'o (: 06:05

Yeah.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 06:20

my work is,

supporting developing countries in the Pacific in a particular area of expertise I guess is what I would I do so you know you recruit people in New Zealand within our organization you put them together in a team and then you you travel to the Pacific and you help Pacific nations it's pretty much it's the core of my job

Digby (: 06:52

I want to dig into that. Hey, you know what that purpose is about before we go there. I reckon it'd be get into the time machine and go back to your more formative years when you were being brought up in Christchurch. And before we recorded, we were exploring what shapes identity. You know, we had that conversation. And how do you make sense of who you are when you're in

(Rob) Pa'o (: 06:57

Mm-hmm.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 07:07

Hmm.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 07:16

Yeah.

Digby (: 07:21

place where you don't necessarily look like everyone else. How did you make sense of who you are?

(Rob) Pa'o (: 07:29

I think the first thing to say is for me, it's a continual thing. It doesn't mean you're always changing. You know, you know, if you think like, like if you have coins and you stack them on top of each other, if you think about yourself in that way, you know, the coin at the top is, is the coin at the bottom, you know, it's, it's, always, it's all connected. You know, it's, it's not like you.

Digby (: 07:35

Mm-hmm.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 07:59

leave a state of being behind. Sometimes you need a bit of help to remember. I think in terms of the early years in Christchurch, I think a lot of immigrants will say this, or children of immigrant families, there's quite a stark difference between being in our house and being outside our house. So being in our house,

Digby (: 08:24

Ooh, tell us more.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 08:28

was completely Samoan. Samoans like family structure, Samoan values, parents spoke Samoan all the time. There's lots of rules and traditions that kind of transfer from the islands into that house. So in this house, you're like, yep, I'm a Samoan person. I know what's going on. This is how we do stuff.

And then you go out into the world where people don't think like that. Not all people think like that. You know, not all people act like that. And, I think you just spend a lot of time. Just try it. I think the first thing is you, you see, you don't, it doesn't reflect you at all. I think that's the first thing you notice. It's kind of arcade, you know, the world does not say I'm on. Okay. That's fine.

And then, you know, there's a continual kind of exploration of, first of all, what is this world and how does it work? know, like, so what are the rules? How do people interact? How do parents talk to children? How do you talk to teachers? How do you talk to people older than you? You know, all those things are quite set in fa'a sa'a mo'a, in sa'a mo'a culture. You know?

and you're trying to figure out how do people interact and move in this world, the outside world. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What are the rules? And people might've heard this before, and let's just be clear, the outside world, yeah, that makes it sound bad. It's not like that. It's just, you know, the quite distinct experiences.

Digby (: 10:01

And what are the rules?

(Rob) Pa'o (: 10:17

So I've lost my train of thought there, sorry Digby. We were talking about.

Digby (: 10:20

well, to-

I can. Well, it'll come back, no doubt. What it's getting me thinking, Rob, is that's quite a distinction between the rules inside the house and the rules outside of you like. And I remember as a kid around the age of about 11 or 12, I was brought up in this idyllic country town on the coast down the southwest of Western Australia.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 10:27

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Digby (: 10:51

And as a young teenager, you know, I went to boarding school in the Big Smoke of Perth and not quite ripped out of the idyllic place, but definitely a thrust into a world where it felt far more sophisticated, different ways of relating different sets of values and feeling.

having to feel my way and. That that kind of sense making of what are the rules, but all the sense making of and who am I in this context? I can that took me years, you know, particularly that kind of really formative age of 12, 13 sort of stuff. Yeah, is that the yeah. Yeah.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 11:40

Yeah, that feels very similar. Yeah, that feels quite similar. So I remembered where I was going with this. know, in Samoan culture, there's a word for the space between people and it's called or the VAR. VAR means space. VAR. And, you know, there rules around how you engage with someone depending on who they are.

Digby (: 11:50

Gay.

Digby (: 11:57

Va. Yeah, va.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 12:08

and based on who they are, specific things are put in the Va, whether it's respect, whether it's cordiality, whether it's instruction, whether it's authority, depending on who they are in your relationship to them, particular things need to go into the space to make it work. So it's quite prescribed.

it's quite a prescribed way of engaging with people and it's, you know, it's got complex structure of, you know, how, how communities engage with each other. And when you like kind of engaging in Christchurch society in the 80s, you know, there's no real consistent structure like that unless you're in something quite regimented, like if you're in like, I don't know.

Like say if you're in a boarding school or say if you're in a church or say if you're in some sort of military outfit, you know, where there's a very clear structure and there's very clear way to behave and engage with others, you know, but the free for all of just regular day-to-day living, you know, that took a while to figure out, you know, what do I do?

Digby (: 13:26

makes me think of the role of rules and it makes me wonder whether in our Western individualistic culture that perhaps we're missing a trick around those ways of engaging. Are they is a little bit more like we'll make them up depending on how we feel. You know, whereas what I'm hearing with your upbringing

(Rob) Pa'o (: 13:30

yeah?

Digby (: 13:55

That was like almost like there's a handbook, right? This is how you show up. Yeah. And have we thrown out the handbook? You know, have we? And if we have, have we? And maybe I'm a big extreme, but what are we missing here? What are the what's the upside? What's the opportunity? By having more prescription of how to relate.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 13:58

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, definitely.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 14:22

Yeah, I don't know if it's prescription or whether it's maybe remembering why things are done. You know, like for example, I heard, was listening to some podcast a few months ago and I remember someone talking about Sunday dinner, English Sunday dinner, right. And talking about how, you know, and it's

earlier iterations, like Sunday dinner was quite purposeful. It was a place for people to come together to talk about, you know, the week to talk about their plans to they wouldn't have called it reconnecting, but that's what they were doing. You know, and over time, my understanding is it's just turned into Sunday dinner. But, but if you remember what it's for, and you keep

and you keep that as a tradition, then maybe it stops being, you know, just this, I feel like roast, you know, like, you you race to Sunday dinner. That's where family gets together. That's where I make sure we're still all tight. That's where I make sure I know what's going on with everybody.

Digby (: 15:37

That's the purpose. And it's kind of like, if you look at Christmas, you know, we're recording this in a week before Christmas day. And you think about Easter and that's now all about chocolate. You know, it's kind of we've we've lost in many ways the real underlying reason for these ceremonies, these rituals. Right. And I love that. I love the remember the purpose. Yeah.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 15:38

Hmm.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 15:46

Yep.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 15:53

point.

Digby (: 16:07

Can you tell us a little bit about that sort of juxtaposition between the inside of the house and the outside world and your exploration and the, I it was attention, but kind of like being in these two worlds and having to navigate. How do you reckon that shaped you and how does that carry forward today?

(Rob) Pa'o (: 16:37

Yeah, I think, I think it just began with things I started to notice, you know, so for example, I noticed there were no Samoan people on billboards, you know, and then I noticed it would know Samoan people on telly, you know, and there were no Samoan people singing songs and there were no Samoan people in booklets or pamphlets.

There were no stories about Samoan people. were, you know, like the, you're kind of moving around and, and, you know, in this space in the eighties and everything I'm noticing is telling me, you know, either, you don't belong there or B, which is the thing that I probably took, notice of the most. if there is success in this place, it's definitely not for you.

based on how ideas of success were transmitted, whether it's in a program, whether it's on a billboard, whether it's in a pamphlet, whether you know, when you talk about go on holiday, this is cool, flick through it. No sign one people go on holiday. Right. And this is me I'm talking about, you know, I'm saying that was the purpose of it. But the more I moved through the world and looked at it,

the less of myself I saw in it. And I think that really stuck with me. I think it makes you do a number of things. You adapt a bit.

You know, so you kind of learn some of these practices and you go, okay, is this how they talk? Okay, well, you know, I'm gonna start learning how to do that. These are things that are important to, you know, European people living in Christchurch in the 80s. Okay, I've got to be aware of that. Even with things like, you know, how you're perceived by people and...

(Rob) Pa'o (: 18:46

how that can have a negative impact on you. Like I always used to take a book onto the bus and I'd read it and I'd read it in a place that everyone saw that I was reading it. You know, I also love to read by the way, which was helpful. But you know, that was, that was something that I found. I really wanted to battle against was, and rightly or wrongly with my approach, you know, that was, you know, don't judge me just cause of how I'm looking, you know,

We do read, we do study, we do do other things, you know.

Digby (: 19:19

Right, so the signal was, I'm like you, don't put me in a lower rung.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 19:27

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, don't put me, don't put me in a box or judge me before, you know, you talk to me or, you know, that was quite, that was quite a calculated thing for me. And also just for safety, you know, like I just, I didn't want people to think that I was a threat or anything.

Digby (: 19:51

Yeah, so there was a fitting in to be safe bit, but there was a larger driver which was a signaling.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 19:56

Yep.

Digby (: 20:01

around the don't box me in and claiming some ground, know, claiming, yeah, this is this is me.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 20:04

Yeah.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 20:12

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, as I've gotten older, we'll probably get onto this later. You know, it's gone from, you know, kind of signaling to complaining, to, you know, actively participating and changing it, you know, and it's really that perception is a big thing.

Digby (: 20:36

Yeah.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 20:40

like for me, you know, perhaps, you know, people could see that that's a superficial thing, but, you know, that's how people know where they're going, how they're, you know, whether they're safe, first impression of you, that stuff's all important, you know, and you can't have the door shut before you get there.

Digby (: 21:04

Yeah, I do. I'm, you know, you said signalling to complaining to being actively involved, essentially. want, can you tell us a little bit about the complaining phase of Rob Pa'o's life?

(Rob) Pa'o (: 21:05

if you know what mean.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 21:15

Hmm.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 21:24

Yeah, yeah, I think with that first phase of just absorbing, you know, what the world is through my experience, And then getting to a point where, you know, how come, you know, how come we aren't in pamphlets? How come people don't write stories about us? You know, I remember in uni in Canterbury,

I was doing arts and there was a scholarship available for a Pacific student and I was like stoked. I was like, yeah, yeah, I'll apply for that. And I was reading through the requirements and it was noting that if you were to be successful in receiving the scholarship, you could only do Pacific art. And I remember being super pissed off with that. I remember just thinking,

I thought he's sponsoring me. You know, I, what if I want to make a sci-fi film or something, or, you know, what if I, you know, want to do a type of like lithography or something, you know, what if I want to be, I paint an, I want to paint an oils or work in digital media. I just remember being very upset about yet again, our box.

Digby (: 22:24

Yeah.

Digby (: 22:46

Mmm.

Digby (: 22:49

Yep. It what what comes up for me is the image of a of a channel dug in the ground for the water to flow in a certain direction. This this is your channel. This is where you're going. Yeah, I'm not surprised you complain. I think that's very justified.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 22:50

for me. I was like, you can't do that. You can't do that. you?

(Rob) Pa'o (: 23:03

Yep. Yep. Yeah. Yes.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 23:15

Yeah, and I think, I don't know, if I'm generous about it, of course, culture is important. And of course, our culture is important to us as Pacific people. But, you know, if you want to talk about the diverse group of people, the people of the Pacific are about as diverse as it gets, you know.

sure, some of us will get it and we'll get would get a scholarship like that and not even think about doing anything other than Pacific art. But for me, being a Pacific person doing any of that, I'm still Pacific. You know, and that's still a message. You know, that's still Yep, you can be a Pacific person and do any of this stuff. You don't have to just flow down this channel where

Digby (: 24:00

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 24:11

Your water is going.

Digby (: 24:13

Yeah, it's it's it's an and not an all right. There's a. There's Pacific person as a part of your identity, but that's not that's not the that's not where the channel stops, right? That's not the you know, there's a it's a much broader. Territory you want to be playing in and you happen to be Pacific. You know, yeah, that that that's huge. How has that?

(Rob) Pa'o (: 24:16

Yeah.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 24:25

Yeah.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 24:33

Mm. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it.

Digby (: 24:42

and story played out in your career or maybe in your life like this. It's kind of like don't box me in. Don't channel me that way. I've got a lot to contribute here. Let me explore where that contribution is best serving. It's a sense I get of you. How has that showed up, played out, you know, into adult life?

(Rob) Pa'o (: 25:03

Yeah.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 25:07

Mm.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 25:12

I have thought about that a couple of times. I don't know whether my wide range of interests is because I'm genuinely curious, which I believe it is, or whether it's some sort of rebellion against what I'm meant to do. I think it's chicken and egg. I remember being, it would have been 12 to 15, kind of that.

Digby (: 25:30

Hahaha. Mmm.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 25:42

that age and really falling in love with heavy metal. Like really, really loving it. And I was into anthrax, was into Metallica, was into all sorts of rock as well, to be honest. was into Dire Straits, like, like I liked like loads of music to be to be fair, but I really fell in love with metal, you know, and

Digby (: 25:46

Awesome. What were you into?

(Rob) Pa'o (: 26:10

You know, started growing my hair long and stuff. And, and I remember, one, Sunday, we were going to church and I remember I wanted to wear my metallica t-shirt to church and, asked mom and she let me.

And I remember just feeling so proud to be her son that day. You know, I was just like, I was like, yeah, mom. It's like, that's right. You know, walking around with these fricking skulls all over the t-shirt, you know, but, like I said, it's, you know, I, I think it's probably a mixture of both from any time, but you know, if I really don't like something, it's hard for me to get into it. So I think.

Digby (: 26:36

yeah.

Yeah

(Rob) Pa'o (: 26:58

I'm not someone that just rebels because the rebelling is the aim, if you know what I mean. has to have some sort of purpose or benefit for me.

Digby (: 27:11

The word that comes up for me isn't rebel. It's something like constructive challenger. You know, that's two words, but you know that.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 27:18

that would have been useful to tell mum. Remember that if anyone's watching this and you want an alternative to rebellion, there you go.

Digby (: 27:30

constructive challenge, because I think that's what I've noticed you do, you know, in our interactions and what I've seen of you that you you'll offer an alternative frame and you'll you'll just gently and quietly. Maybe you do it loudly to that. You'll just invite people to stop in their tracks and go, hmm, here's another way of thinking about that. Or here's how that's limited or something. And

(Rob) Pa'o (: 27:41

Hmm.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 27:58

Hmm.

Digby (: 27:58

You know, that's the constructive challenger, I reckon. Yet I don't think that's at odds with the curiosity part, right? Because you seem to, you know, I think of it as almost like a yin and yang circle here, right? There's this challenge bit of, hey, stop and think. Yet there's this invitation to learn and you want to learn and understand as well. And I love that combo, right? It's, you know, there's a book I read years ago called

(Rob) Pa'o (: 28:17

Mm.

Digby (: 28:28

executive coaching with backbone and heart. And it's sort of similar, like there's this backbone challenge, yet there's a lot of heart that you bring. And yeah, it's, I'm just, I'm putting it out there as an observation. I'm not quite sure where we could take that, but I'm wondering how does that sit with you as part of your identity?

(Rob) Pa'o (: 28:32

Mm.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 28:53

I think you the nail on the head at the end there. You know, don't know where to go with this. I think that's that the purpose of asking or offering a frame is not that I know the answer. It's that whatever's been offered sounds incomplete. You know, it sounds like we're, you know, I don't think we're quite there. I don't know what it is, but maybe if we think about it like this, we may be able.

Digby (: 29:05

Mm-hmm.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 29:20

you know, to work around what we have on the table, you know? I really love to collaborate with people. I like not knowing the answer, you know? I like the exploration of it. And I think when you work that way, it doesn't become this, I'm talking about working through things, like that process doesn't become adversarial.

You know, it's not this or that or this or that. It's like, could be bits of this, could be bits of that, you know? And pitching it in a way where people don't take whatever has been talked about previously off the table, you know, I think is a good thing to do.

Digby (: 30:07

Yes, the end, right? Again, it's not the it's this or that it's there's this bit and there's this bit and there's probably other bits we haven't even seen yet.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 30:13

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right.

Digby (: 30:17

Hmm. There's I'm curious about that. You like not knowing the answer, which is, I think, awesome. What's it like? And maybe you have a story around working with people who are driving for the answer, because, you know, oftentimes we. know, cultures value that workplace cultures value. We need the answer. We need it tomorrow because the minister is asking for it or something, right?

(Rob) Pa'o (: 30:39

Mmm.

Yeah.

Yep, yep.

Digby (: 30:46

How do you sit with how do you work with that?

(Rob) Pa'o (: 30:50

I think there are situations for, for that, for that, situation or scenario you described before, you know, sometimes the answer is the answer. How many people have done this? Okay. Yep. We know that. How many people have done that? How many accidents happened here? You know, that kind of stuff. I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The definitive stuff. Yeah, of course. You know, there's a time and place for that. But when we, or when groups get together and they're trying

Digby (: 31:07

Yep. That definitive stuff.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 31:19

to think about something new. I always find it quite fascinating if someone somehow knows the answer already. like, how can, like internally, I'm like, how can you know the answer already? This thing is new, we're walking a new path. And to me, if you think in that way,

whether you're doing like fact checking or complex problem solving, you know, and the complex problem solving part. I mean, sure, you can provide a level of assurance to people because of course you're gonna do the thing that you said you're gonna do at every step of the plan that you wrote. But for me, it's, you know, developing new things is about exploration. And sometimes the answer...

You know, you won't even know it, but you won't find it. If you think, you know what the answer is, you know, for me, it's about how can you interrogate a situation or scenario with enough, curiosity and intent so that the truth reveals itself, which is really what you're trying to get. Yeah. You're trying to find what is the answer? Not my answer, not Dave's answer.

not Polly's answer, not what is the answer to this. And we need everyone pitching in on that.

Digby (: 32:50

I love that. So that the truth reveals itself. It reminds me of a quote I heard from the professional poker player, Annie Duke. And it's something along the lines of probably make a hash of it, but don't seek to be right. Seek to be accurate. And I love that, right? It's if you're making an assertion, you better have the facts to back up that assertion. You know, if you're saying it's the truth, well, can you just explain that?

(Rob) Pa'o (: 33:07

That's good.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 33:14

Yeah.

Digby (: 33:19

and explain how you came to that, you know, critical thinking, really. And I love that seek to be accurate because that is the search for the truth. But you've got to do it through a lens of accuracy, not assumption.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 33:35

Yes. Yeah, yeah. you know, allow your idea to be destroyed. You know, a lot of, you know, a lot of people don't like that. Or if they have people that they would class as overly negative, they don't like to work with them. Whereas for me,

Digby (: 33:44

yeah.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 33:57

I find people that interrogate ideas in that way super valuable because they're the ones that ask you the real question, which is, you believe in what you've said? You know, do you really? You know, cause I think it sucks because of this or I don't think it'll work because of that.

And that's how you really discover, shucks, have I actually thought about this? Or did I just race to the end and think I'm right? So for me, I need people like that. Because like I said before, they're the ones that are really helping you sharpen the idea.

Digby (: 34:37

You, you stopped me in my tracks when you said, allow your idea to be destroyed. It got me thinking, getting me thinking that.

I think a lot of people hold very tightly to their ideas for whatever reason, you know, as an identity thing or they need to be right, whatever it is. What is it that you reckon has shaped you or caused you to be way more? It's kind of like hold it tightly with an open palm. You might believe in it, but you're willing for it to be destroyed. what what's what are the shaping forces that have

caused you to be that way. Cause I think it's a rare thing.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 35:22

Yeah, I think when I talked about growing up that that would have helped, know, that, you know, this idea of what we do and how we behave in the home and with our community. Actually, it isn't everything. Right. And then.

butting that up against the idea of, you know, the predominant culture in Christchurch at that time and thinking, this is actually what the world is like. And then thinking, hold on, but it's not like that in my house. So that also is not everything. Yeah. So yeah.

Digby (: 35:53

There you go.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 35:58

That was probably, I mean, it's only now talking to you, they're probably realizing it to be honest, but, you know, that would have been maybe the first part of me realizing, you know, what is, you know, what is the supreme reality, if you will, of things, you know, a lot of it is perception, a lot of it is what individuals think.

Digby (: 36:05

Awesome.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 36:24

A lot of it is based on your situation or your cultural lens or how you've been taught to do things. So what exists beyond that? And I think what I'd just as part of my notes around that, it's, something can either be a platform or a shackle, right?

So you can either be chained to something, like the idea of the world and how it works. And you're just all in on it, right? Which means that you also need to protect it at all costs. Be away from people that don't think like you, not hear things that you don't like, not absorb anything that could destroy your ideas, because your world is kind of propped up on it. Or you could accept...

that nothing is permanent, including how you look at things. And then you really start exploring, know, who is this Rob guy? You know, that's when you start having those kind of conversations with yourself through talking to others like how I'm talking to you.

Digby (: 37:38

Yeah. And what's been implicit in all of this last 10 minutes or so is, the role of others. And I'm curious about, yeah, you said you need people who are going to destroy your ideas. You need people who are going to engage in this level of conversation with you. How do you find them? How do you bring them into your world? Where do they come from?

(Rob) Pa'o (: 38:14

I think everyone has the capacity to think and talk like this. And I feel like, like what I'm able to do is to put people at ease with it. You know, that, you know, it's not really a, trust me with what we're talking. It's not that type of offer. You know, it's more of a

Digby (: 38:25

video.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 38:38

You know, there's a little dash of, nothing lasts forever. know, you know, you know, Hey, do you really want to talk? You know, like, do really want to talk? You know, cause, the people that I want to have in my life, you know, like my friends and, you know, not your family so much because they're probably anyway, and they're always going to be around, but you know, the people that you choose to be in your life who aren't your family, like if I don't really get, I don't need to know absolutely everything.

Digby (: 38:42

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 39:07

But I need to know, know, how do you, where do you operate from? You know, how do you feel about, you know, your family? How do you feel about, you know, injustice, so to speak, even things like how do you feel about football? You know, you can tell a lot from someone about, you know, by listening to how they think about things.

or how they do things, know, watching someone make a sandwich, you can learn lot from that, you know, you know, so they just like chuck the thing together or do they get a particular butter heated at a particular temperature with a particular bread, you know, it tells you heaps, right?

Digby (: 39:50

and there's something about this says a lot about who you are, that you observe those sorts of things. You know, that how many people would even think to go, how does this person operate? You know, by observing them, you know, that's powerful. Yeah.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 40:09

yeah, I'm fat. Yeah, I find it fascinating. And, and I think the other thing is, in terms of values, is you have to do that stuff with care, you know, because, really, people are revealing themselves to you, and people tend to keep that stuff behind things, you know.

Digby (: 40:29

yeah.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 40:31

And the way you engage with them when that happens is you've got to, you know, I'm not saying like it's a recipe, but you know, operating from your values is how you do it. You know, that you keep confidences that you don't use this information to hurt them that you, you know, that you're trying to, you know, get to a different level of understanding. This is not for my benefit. This is, know, all these kinds of things, ideas, concepts, threats.

what would everyone call you know all of their stuff's wrapped up in how you meet the person where they are you know yeah it does take some trust around that and you know sometimes there's pushback and that's fine you know some people aren't ready for that and that's all good with me but you really have to show people you know that you know they protect it because they feel it's important i also think it's that important you know

Digby (: 41:29

Yeah. Yeah. And show that you value that. Yeah, absolutely. Tell me a bit about purpose. You know, I when so we've known each other. That's each other very often, but there's been these lovely touch points in our history. And one of them was when you did the changemakers program.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 41:34

yeah yeah yeah absolutely

Digby (: 41:57

years ago now and we have a thing in there called your big question. You know what's the big question that you're aligning your life efforts around, your work effort around that may not be answered in your lifetime. What's the big question you're contributing to answer right and I know you did through that and it wasn't only because of that program but that was a part of the journey for you. There was a

a real clarity I saw emerge about what you're here to do. Yeah. And you mentioned a bit about your work. Tell us a bit about the purpose behind what you do.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 42:40

Hmm, that's a really good question

Pacific people, my family also being one of them, know, one thing you heard growing up was, you know, the concept of or the idea that New Zealand is the land of milk and honey. You know, it is the place where all of your wishes and dreams and successes and prosperity that is where it will happen. You know, that's why a lot of Samoans and Islanders got sent here. Yeah, you'd normally by their families.

to succeed on their behalf and create a prosperous future for the next generation. And what I saw, I experienced personally with my mom is my mom worked two or three jobs, cleaning, working at foundation for the blind, lots of different jobs, putting herself through teachers college. And then...

She goes out and you know, in: 1980

I'm sorry you're overqualified for this role. And I remember my mom would show me all of these letters. And I just remember feeling, you know, an intense like sadness and fury about it. Firstly, because it's, think it, you know, for me, it was apparently unjust, even though I was young. And the second thing is my mom, right? So of course you're going to be, you're going to be upset. So I remember thinking, so we come here.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 44:31

We go to their schools, we do all their stuff, we get qualified, and then they won't give us jobs. So what is the point of this? Yeah, yeah, what is the point of that? You know? And that was probably the inception of it, along with everything else that I've described, you know, my experience of growing up in that environment.

Digby (: 44:39

Where's the milk and honey here?

(Rob) Pa'o (: 45:00

And I remember my mother being very focused on success for Pacific people. So she was big on education. She comes from a family of teachers.

like at church, she was constantly talking to, you know, my cousins, you know, you should go to university, you know, I can't go to university. Yeah, you can go to university. You know, you've got a you've got a brain like every other person on the planet, you can go to university. And she just be constantly doing this work, you know, with our young people of our church, you know, and I know loads of them now that are, you know, qualified.

gone through uni, got good jobs, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. You know, I'm not saying, you know, that's cause of mom, but mom cared enough to tell them, you know, but you, you have the ability like any other person to do this. And I think that type that success for Pacific people, it's something maybe not.

super clear at the beginning, but you know, quite clear at the moment, you know, that I'm driving success for Pacific people is, is a really important thing for me. I got told yesterday in a meeting, you know, you're, you're quite passionate about this, aren't you Rob? And I just remember thinking, it's like the last word I have in my mind when I described myself.

Digby (: 46:13

Hmm.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 46:29

aiming or trying to live this purpose. It's in, yeah, I, I think it's, I think it's, it's hard to, to see yourself from the outside sometimes, you know, when you, when you're in it, I mean, you don't you know, there's another reason for needing others, right? You need others, especially people you trust who can tell you accurately what is happening, right? Cause

Digby (: 46:45

Yeah.

Digby (: 46:56

that accuracy rather than the truth is the accuracy again. Right. I agree. You know, it having people who shine a light or hold up a mirror to say, here's what I'm experiencing. Here's what I'm seeing. I think is so important. You're right. It's so hard. I find it. I find it where I'm trying to think about where I'm taking my work. You know, and in my head, it's a jumble, right?

clear vision, purpose and strategy. Maybe in the suit there somewhere, but the, but then I have people who have experienced me over time and can, you know, consistently in engagements with me, they will cut through and say, you're about this. This is what I see you're standing for. Here's where your superpowers lie. And, know, I, you don't need that many of them, I reckon, but you, you want people who

(Rob) Pa'o (: 47:46

Mmm.

Yeah.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 47:54

Handful.

Digby (: 47:55

want the best for you and will be accurate with their language and their description. And it is gold because. Yeah, it's like, I'm the genie in the bottle. I can't see myself in this bottle, but they're seeing me inside the bottle going, look at you go. I'm like, OK, good. And it gives me permission to a, keep going and B, not be perfect. I think I'm they're seeing a better version of me than I may be seeing of myself.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 47:59

Mm-hmm.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 48:10

Yeah.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 48:20

Yay.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 48:26

That's absolutely it, I think. Yeah, because, you know, there's people you really connect with, so they really know you. know, like if there's a recording of you or something, it's like a handful of people that know you're nervous, you know, probably even less than that, you know, because they know you. They're like, yeah, I saw you do the little... shucks. Yeah, you recovered well. You know, no one else saw that.

Digby (: 48:36

Yeah.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 48:55

You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Digby (: 48:56

And they're doing it out of love, right? It's not a, yeah, yeah, it's not a critique. And most other people might notice it or not notice it and who cares? In fact, it's interesting just measuring what I just shared. I'm like, Ooh, should I put that in the podcast that I don't have it all together? You know, so of course.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 49:06

That's right.

Well, what does it mean? Big B, what does it mean to have it all together? know, is it, is having it all together, does that mean that you've got every inch of your life planned out? For some people, it works and great. You know, that's awesome. But for me, you know, it's more around

Digby (: 49:19

Yeah

(Rob) Pa'o (: 49:41

the values and whether I'm living them every day. That's, that's what I always go back to, you know, it's sometimes, you know how you can deliver something really clumsily sometimes, you know, sometimes you'll say, you look, you know, but, the values come through, can, you know, that's

Digby (: 49:55

No, I don't know that at all, Rob.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 50:06

Whenever I do that, that's my rewind on it. I'm just like, hold on. Did I say it was the intent, right? And the energy, right? All right, cool. Yep. Can clean it up. That's fine. Yeah, that's, you know.

Digby (: 50:15

Yeah. Well, actually this podcast is that right? mean, I deliberately want it to be a real raw conversation, not an interview with preset questions because I feel that's more engaging for anyone listening. Right. It's more interesting because it's two humans having an expert tree conversation and even saying exploratory came out kind of Yeah. That that's it's yeah. This is how we roll.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 50:25

Hmm.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 50:36

Hehehehehe

Digby (: 50:44

I want to it might feel like a slight left turn here, but I want to. I'm sure it's linked. You took the kids back to summer. Not long ago.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 50:45

It definitely is.

Yep.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 50:55

Yes.

Yep, yeah we did.

Digby (: 51:01

Tell us why, what that experience was like.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 51:07

Yeah, was quite an affecting experience. My mother took me to Samoa when I was three and that's it. So basically, I feel like really me and the boys and Lisa as well, we were all going for the first time. And it was really special to go with them.

I think this is not an uncommon thing with immigrant families, It's that, know, the family have come here for a better life. They had it like this and they, you know, they didn't even have shoes and they, you know, everyone hears all those stories. But the thing I learned from being at home, if I can call it that, you know, in Samoa with the boys and a very important thing.

their Buddha says is that you cannot pass on enlightenment. So I'm telling the boys before we go, you know, they don't have much money. It's hard life in the village. It's actually I told them ever since they were young, right? know, you're lucky to have a fridge with food, you're lucky to have this stuff. But they don't know any like the genie in the bottle. They don't know, right? It's the life that they've got. They have no comprehension of it. But when we went

to my mother's village and to my auntie's house. And they're sitting there in this, in this house, which is very unlike a house that they've ever lived in. I just remember watching their faces, but just this dawning of wow. You know, grandma used to live here like this and

running water and it's you know and you you can just watch it kind of washing over them and then slowly realizing you know you know thank thank the lord my grandma came here you know to New Zealand and it was interesting like for months before we went they'd been complaining about all sorts of things

(Rob) Pa'o (: 53:25

You know, I don't like my room. I don't like, I don't like the walls. I don't like my posters. Straight after we went to see my auntie, I remember us being in the car and they were like, yeah, my room's pretty good, dad? was like, you know, and you know, I think in addition to that,

Digby (: 53:42

hahahaha

(Rob) Pa'o (: 53:52

this really strong sense of belonging I was hearing from the boys that I hadn't heard from them before. know, in my mum's village there's a monastery or a school, a religious school and at the back of it near the coast there's like a cave and it's got a pool. It's like a pool and a cave under a church. And beautiful to me.

and they couldn't get enough of being in that water. And I just remember thinking, your grandmother's been in that water before, you know, how amazing is that? You know, she's swum in this pool, she's looked out at this ocean, you know, it's...

Digby (: 54:30

yeah.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 54:37

And, you know, that sense of connection and oneness, I feel like I can't really do it any justice talking about it, but I remember being there and just feeling it feeling so special. And the boys, wherever we went in Samoa, I just remember them. They were just so content. You know, their faces in the ocean were just so content. I remember our youngest one talking about, this is my water.

Digby (: 54:45

Yeah.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 55:05

yes yep absolutely absolutely is yeah that was that would have been last September yeah yep

Digby (: 55:06

Yeah, well yeah right. Wow that's a realisation. What, how long ago was that?

Digby (: 55:19

Okay, so just over here, go, what have you noticed has been the lasting effect either on you or on the kids?

(Rob) Pa'o (: 55:33

Yeah, I think for me it's probably a full circle, maybe even a process in the grief, you know, because my mother passed away in 2005, you know, when we were flying away, when we left Sadamor, I remember just...

thinking about how scared and lonely she would have felt being on this plane going to a country. She has no understanding what it's like on a massive mission to turn the dial for the family. And I just remember, I did cry thinking about that. And also looking at her grandsons and just thinking...

far you did pretty awesome mom you know like that's that is mission complete you know like yeah and and so for me yeah it was it was a sense of closure you know in that sense and that's probably what it gave me and i think for the boys because you know what children are like sometimes the understanding or the wisdom doesn't come to a way later

Digby (: 56:28

There's the legacy, right? Yeah.

Digby (: 56:50

Yeah. Yeah.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 56:50

You know, like the thing that I noticed the most was that it was going in.

You know, and that's the most important thing. It was going in at the source from the place in the right way. So that'll sit within them, right? For them to interrogate as they go older, to bubble back up, to turn into curiosity, you know, that's the gift of being in Samoa. That's the gift that they'll have.

Digby (: 56:57

Yeah.

Digby (: 57:09

Alright.

Digby (: 57:19

There's something beautiful about what you're saying there, you know, coming back into quite a different context, you know, I work in leadership development and there's so much demand for send people on a course and expect immediate change as a result of that course. Right. And, and just last week I was, I was working with a group. We'd just finished a six month development.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 57:39

Hehehehehe

Digby (: 57:49

leadership development program. And we were talking about return on investment and all that stuff, you know, and there was this, I found myself saying the word I was using was this is an equipping program, right? This, but another way of putting it is exactly what you've just described. It's a planting the seeds of wisdom of stuff that may not, you know, these may not see any tangible outward benefit for a little while.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 57:55

Yeah, yeah,

(Rob) Pa'o (: 58:03

Right.

Digby (: 58:19

because this stuff takes time to germinate and sometimes decades as in, you know, and it will continue to have many different faces as, you know, as life goes on. Right. And I, again, I think there's something about the, the fast paced and the now and get the right answer and all of this stuff that gets in the way of the real work, you know, of the real work of growth and

(Rob) Pa'o (: 58:22

Mmm.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 58:26

Yeah.

Digby (: 58:49

development and your gift to your kids.

is that we need more of that, think, you know, that planting seeds.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 59:02

Yeah, yeah, it definitely taught me, like I said, it really taught me a lot about with the children anyway, you know, and also, you know, professional life, you know, the way information is transmitted and the intent it is transmitted with is almost more important than the thing you're saying, you know, like I've heard other parents tell the boys,

things that I tell them like a million times, right? Like a million times. Why haven't you done this? How come you haven't cleaned that? I'm sure every parent of teenagers has said the same thing. But sometimes you're at someone's house and they ask them and it just gets done, right? And you're like.

Firstly, there's fury because, can't they do it for me? The second thing is, how can I say it like that? And then the third thing is sometimes the part out of your control is how that information is transmitted to the person so they get it. And you have to be happy that that process happens no matter who's involved, right? It doesn't matter who says it.

Digby (: 59:57

Yeah

Digby (: 01:00:19

Yep. Yep.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 01:00:22

If someone knows how to say it, awesome.

Digby (: 01:00:24

Yeah, it's independent of you or it can be right. The way of why of doing it. That's awesome.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 01:00:30

yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

Digby (: 01:00:36

Robert feels like we're a place where we could at least pause this conversation, but no doubt we will keep having these over the months and years ahead. Is there anything that in final words around stuff we want to reiterate or explore slightly more stuff that you maybe would have loved to have gone deeper into that you'd love to just touch on?

(Rob) Pa'o (: 01:00:42

Yep.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 01:01:05

This always happens when we talk to V, like honestly, I'm thinking about like a few different things, like about 20 different things that I could easily start talking about right now. But I think if I try my best to reflect on what we've talked about, I think, you know, really acknowledging and accepting

It sounds like cliche, but you know, development and growth is a journey and don't expect to get there. You know, like, plan to get there, but don't expect to get there. You know, it's, that, it's that spirit of continued curiosity and exploration, you know, that you always find there's another level.

You you get to a level, you plateau for a bit, might be for a while, but eventually, you know, you hit the start of the next level. You know, and the only way that doesn't happen is you get a chair and you put it on that plateau and you stay there. And you have to be quite intentional in doing that. You know, like that's my experience, you know, like sometimes you feel like walking. Sometimes you feel like running. Yeah. Just as long as you're moving.

Digby (: 01:02:32

long as you're moving.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 01:02:33

And yeah, long as you're moving and you know, there's always another level, you know, you're gonna continue to develop and grow yourself, you know, that's kind of what I've reflected on our conversation and, you know, in terms of the last few years for me.

Digby (: 01:02:51

man, you have a way with words. think I'll be resonating, well, reflecting on so many of these ideas. It's awesome. It's man. wish we talked more often. It is so good. It's, it's just sort of like this. don't know. I'm just soaking in it right now. It's fabulous. So thank you, Rob. How can

(Rob) Pa'o (: 01:03:05

Yeah.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 01:03:16

no worries, it's nice to have one recorded, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Digby (: 01:03:18

It's good to have one recorded. Maybe there's going to be another one, I think, down the track. If people wanted to connect with you directly, what's the best way for them to do that?

(Rob) Pa'o (: 01:03:27

Mm-hmm.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 01:03:30

that's a good question. maybe the best way is by email. Maybe the best way, you know, or, I forgot I was on there. Yes.

Digby (: 01:03:41

Yeah. Or maybe LinkedIn is.

Digby (: 01:03:48

There you go. So if you get hold of Rob on LinkedIn, maybe don't expect an immediate reply. Awesome. Yes, it took me a while. I remember looking trying to look you up on LinkedIn a while back and yeah, I didn't know about the CO2. OK. So there's full circle for us. Rob, thanks so much, my friend. It's something.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 01:03:54

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it is is CO2 on LinkedIn as well. Yeah.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 01:04:15

It's been a pleasure.

Digby (: 01:04:16

for all of us just to reflect on. love that you've got some reminders, some learning for yourself out of it. So thank you, mate. And I'll see you soon.

(Rob) Pa'o (: 01:04:24

Thank you. Yeah, that's always a great convoy. Thanks. Thanks very much for the opportunity, mate. Appreciate it.