1. Why We Fear Feedback, Letting Go of Competition and How to Make Others Safely Uncomfortable | Callum McKirdy

Digby (: 00:01

My guest today is Callum McKirdy. Callum's a neurodiversity champion and he's the author of a couple of books, Tilt and Catalyst HR. He's got a podcast, You, Me and ADHD. That's all the formal stuff. But if I think to the relational stuff, reckon Callum is one of the most unassuming people I've ever met. Yet he's also one of the deepest thinkers and the most articulate speakers I've ever met. He's got this gift to cut through really quickly to the heart of the matter in a way that feels sometimes a little disarming, but you come out the other side of a conversation so enlightened and I am so looking forward to this conversation for that reason. He calls Dunedin in the deep south of New Zealand home, yet his ideas and his messages have got this global reach. There's a profundity to his thinking. Callum, welcome to the show, my friend.

Callum (: 00:58

Hey, thanks for having me. That's weird. You know how when you get introduced at a conference and you've written the bio and it's being sort of played back to you and like, what a dick, you've written all this sort of stuff. And so you've come up with that yourself and there was none of the, I didn't get a chance to call myself a dick in my head as you were sort of going through that, but I'm also thinking, really?

Like, is that me? Because I don't feel like any of those things, which I think is probably, that's the point, right? It's, you know, we don't experience ourselves the way other people experience us. So it's really nice to hear those things. And I'm not surprised because you, you know, you tell me those things quite often because you're very open like that, Diggs, but I, it's like, wow, really? God, you're kind of setting me up. I'm going to deliver the goods.

Digby (: 01:53

I'll say some expectations. Well, you know, I reckon we can't not have an impact. Right. And I was talking in a workshop yesterday with a bunch of leaders and they were talking about the value of feedback, but also the fear of feedback and hearing how you are landing. And, yeah, I think there's so much value in being able to get the gift of feedback in a way that's kind I didn't even realize that's how I was having an impact.

Callum (: 02:21

Yeah. Yeah. I'm playing with this new IP at the moment around, I call it the door, the frame and the light. It's got nothing to do with religion. Some people have sort of challenged me on that. It's got not the light and sort of a religious aspect, letting people in rather than going out to the world. How about we let people into our world and in the, guess, the workplace setting, that's about how do

allow people to give us feedback and to listen to that, but also to share what that means to you as well. And we don't give that an opportunity. We just don't allow, especially here in New Zealand, like the most passive aggressive nation on the planet, we're really scared of hearing what other people think. And also we're really scared of just how I reacted to your intro there as well, Digby.

We, we're afraid of how that might make us feel. And I'm really interested in that. think that's, I think we're so weird about hearing what other people think of us, especially in this day and age where you can find a whole lot of fake versions of yourself out there online. And we put a lot of that out there in terms of, you you curated Instagram lifestyle and whatever else, not that I'm a big user of social media, but it's that.

I think we put out there some stuff that we want people to see, allowing people to come into our worlds is, I think it's the next big thing. I think it's the breaking down of those barriers rather than pushing forward. It's actually about how do we allow people to come into our worlds a little bit, if that makes any sense.

Digby (: 04:12

It makes a lot of sense and there's so much we can dig into here. I want to rewind to the fear bit. So what do you reckon the base fear is? You mentioned, you know, that we're afraid that what we hear is something that's going to make us uncomfortable. What do you reckon is right at the heart of that? I mean, you've done a lot of thinking about this stuff. What do you think is right at the core?

Callum (: 04:41

I reckon there's a disconnect within us between what we think of ourselves and what we hope other people think of ourselves, think of us, and the fear comes from either people not seeing us who we want to be seen as, or people seeing us that way, so the true, our true selves, and them not liking that.

I think that's what, and I think that comes down

I mean, there's a whole lot of reasons for that, but I think that we do talk these days a lot about vulnerability, that sort of thing. And I don't, it shouldn't be vulnerable to be yourself in front of someone else and for someone to see you as anything far from perfect, because that's it. We really want people to like us for being perfect and nobody is. And it's like, who cares? It's

I mean, we're scared of tripping, we're scared of falling over or stumbling or saying the wrong thing or like I can't even find words to describe this and I've been thinking deeply about this IP for a very long time. so when you introduce me and say that, I don't think you use the word articulate, but you said something around the way I speak or come across and I'm like, none of that in my head.

Digby (: 05:56

Mm -hmm.

Callum (: 06:13

So immediately I go, shit, Digby's expecting something more than I can actually deliver. And we're mates and I should not be at all fearful of how I'm going to come across because it's right now it's just you and me chatting. And the fact that I have that that we fear in there is as silly, but it's also real.

And I think lots of people, like we all do that. And I'm really interested and curious around, well, why the fuck do we do that? Like what's behind that is a fear that you'll go, hmm, that wasn't as good as I thought it was gonna be. And I have no idea what your expectation is. And also, I shouldn't know what your expectation is. Because I can't know

Digby (: 06:59

And it's fascinating. I'm fascinated by that because it's the my intent in my intro is twofold is one to describe for our audience who they're going to get to hear from and what he's like, but also to. And I think this is the fascinating bit to make you feel good. And and I'm hearing that it's almost had the opposite effect that it made you feel a bit squeamish, a bit uncomfortable.

Callum (: 07:25

Well, I think it's when it comes to emotions and feelings, we think that they're really binary or they're linear or there's just one at a time sort of thing. so, yeah, you made me feel real good. But also I made myself feel uncomfortable. You didn't do that. I chose to do it. What did I choose? It might have been automatic. I don't know if it's subconscious. And it's like, and so there's I think that's the there's this it's not a

Disconnect but it's a rub with it. It's like I'm feeling this but I'm also feeling this and it's like well What do I what do I go

Digby (: 07:58

And I'm wondering, and this is a podcast that's about helping us think about how we lead and changing the way we lead. Right. And I'm thinking about, so if we're refusing or avoiding that disconnect, you know, we're, we're, we're not really wanting to take on board or even ask for feedback like that. How is the world smaller? Because I suspect there's a strong link between the effective leadership in all its forms.

Is that coming through? Bugger. How did I? We'll have to edit that out. I am just going

Callum (: 08:30

That is.

Hey, Jingo.

So here's the thing, I don't reckon we do edit that out because the really important point here is for... is Dig Deeper is the name of this podcast and you're looking at curiosity and I'm really curious as to why you've gone with the default ringtone.

Digby (: 08:54

Right. Great circuit breaker there, right? So I've gone, that's bad. And I reckon we're in the same territory as this uncomfortable feedback stuff, right? There's something about a judgment about what's right, what's wrong, what's good, what's bad.

Callum (: 08:57

Ha ha

Callum (: 09:11

Yeah, cuz you squirmed you're like shit that's unprofessional to have Have it have my phone going off. No, it's not there's life

Digby (: 09:13

Mm -hmm.

Digby (: 09:18

Yeah, I love it. It reminds me of our mutual colleague, George Merch, who wrote a book called Flawsome. And, you know, it's the idea that you're awesome because you're flawed. You know, and I think this is what we're talking about, really. And I want to I want to come back to that. So how is the world smaller? How are what are we missing out on and what are other people missing out on when we're not accepting those flaws and that or taking

Callum (: 09:23

Yep. Awesome.

Digby (: 09:48

feedback about how we are perceived.

Callum (: 09:51

Well, we, if you set yourself up with an expectation, I think expectations suck. And if we place pressure on ourselves to expect to be something that we can't possibly know to the full extent how we're gonna come across or how we're gonna be, because we're not in that situation yet. It's like planning, strategic planning, that sort of thing. Like it's very hard to predict what's going to happen in three months time, let alone, you know, 12 months time.

Yet we set up expectations that we can control these sort of things and I'm so free flow with with things and I come across as maybe lazy or maybe just not caring but it's just like I'm like I'm I'm at the I'm at the mercy of the world to dictate a lot of what happens in my life and I'm good with that and I think when we try to control too much that's when we get smaller that's when

restrict possibility and opportunity and we kind of we actually in terms of that sort of The door the frame the light that I was talking about we closed the door on a whole lot of things Because we try to frame things up too much or we try to have expectations of how things are going to be now of course in business you you want to replicate processes that can you know or Design processes so you can repeat them and replicate them and that's effective and efficient

I think when it comes to people, because every person is so individual and everyone has so much going on in their lives these days, it's putting a lot of people under pressure. We don't know how people are going to come in and show up. But we can be open to being able to receive those people and go, okay, what do you need from me today? What do I need from you? And having that sort of conversation without putting huge expectation on

This is the output.

Digby (: 11:51

Yeah. Or it's more about. I have a saying meet and where they're at, you know, which there's a few derivations of that, right. And it reminds me of the idea of. Are you locking onto practices or principles and practices are the minutiae of I need to do this here or you might even say practice principles or processes, right. And so if we're going here's the process we need to follow.

because that's what we always do. We can be at risk of missing the bigger point. Whereas a principle is like meeting with that to me as a principle. And yesterday, working with this group of changemakers in Marlborough. Yeah, there's an architecture I have for how I run the day as the facilitator. And a bunch of principles, yet my job isn't

just drive through at 10 .35 a .m. We need to be at this point in the day. It's like, where are these people at and what do they need? As you're saying. And then I think the skill, perhaps the leadership ship skill might be to get the balance right between knowing that you've got things that you can bring practices, processes, yet at the same time, not being arrogant.

Callum (: 12:53

Yeah, yeah, -huh. Yeah,

Digby (: 13:17

too arrogant to go, well, this is what has happened. It's more like what has to happen is a higher order thing, you know, which is people leave with clarity, with confidence, with connection, whatever it might

Callum (: 13:20

Yeah.

Callum (: 13:23

Yeah,

Callum (: 13:27

Yep. But isn't that what leadership is today, is facilitating an environment for other people to bring their best and be their best. I think, none of that, and notice there's the bring and be, but none of it is about do, because the doing will happen when people can be their best. Right. And I imagine, you you talk about Marlborough yesterday, you're facilitating a workshop.

Digby (: 13:38

I think so.

Callum (: 13:57

yet they bring, like you might have some principles, but they bring their own examples and cases of that to talk through, to think through, to distill or pull apart or whatever they need to do. And you can't preempt that. You don't know what people are going to bring. And so it's apply a principle to what's happening for them. And so there is a meeting in the middle as opposed to old school management of do this.

get this done, it this way.

Digby (: 14:28

Yeah. Tell us about how you've come to those beliefs in your experience of living a life. I know it's a big

Callum (: 14:38

My goodness. Are we going to are you going to chop this up into two parts?

Digby (: 14:45

Well, maybe a better way to put it is give us an example of how an instance or a time in your career or life that's shaped some of those

Callum (: 15:01

Okay, let's go back to when we first met. What was that?

Digby (: 15:07

2007 or

Callum (: 15:09

Yeah, 2008 I'd say. Might have been 2007, yeah. And we were in a room in Wellington, both working at Deloitte. And you and I, I can't even remember what the project was, but I remember we were whiteboarding a whole lot of stuff. And I was, I was intimidated by you because you spoke with

so much clarity around what it was we were doing. I don't remember the detail, but I remember how you spoke and how I received what you were saying. And it was like, this guy is clued up and you were talking on a level which I don't think I been talked with in a very long time, if at all. And I thought, this guy's cool. But of course I'm not as cool as him.

I knew I knew because I'd flown up from Dunedin. We're in the Wellington office I'd flown up from Dunedin you were in sort of your home home base and I knew that I got to leave and I could I remember thinking about the relief of just having to get through this day with this dude who was so clever and And Articulate but also you had

we were scheming up something, we were designing something, right? And you would come with all this experience and I was like, geez, I'm a newbie to this sort of stuff. And so that was one of those points where I go, what do do to get through this? But also this guy's cool. And so it's the letting you in.

but also preserving enough of myself. it was like, it was one of those really like, be perfectly honest, Digby, what I remember from the day is it was this balancing act for me between how do I let you see the real me while getting through the day, while also not digging too deep, literally, into some of the stuff you're talking about. I have no idea what you're saying.

Digby (: 17:10

Well.

Digby (: 17:22

Heh

Callum (: 17:30

But I know there's some leaks to this, and I don't want you to see that I haven't got a clue what's going on. But also,

want you to like me so there's a whole lot of this going on and then we went you know get you go your separate ways and it was years after that we sort of reconnected but quite often we talk about that day but we don't necessarily talk about you know what was going on i've never told you that was it but we clicked right there was like that was a cool connection and it's almost in that there

Digby (: 17:46

Yep. Yep.

Callum (: 18:11

in an instant, like we're best mates and we don't have to see each other for a very long time but every time we catch up it's like it's a cool connection and that's I don't even know what your question was but it's like the I think about those sorts of things on that level and I'm not sure if I was to meet you now I would have that same experience because I don't have

I don't have this need to be liked or accepted. Whereas at that time when I was new to consulting, I kind of did. And I think maybe that could have got in my way, that could have got in our way. But I don't think you let that get in the way. What was your experience with

Digby (: 19:04

So that's a lovely recollection of, you know, an eight hour period of history. My experience was a lot of the same stuff you said around that we immediately clicked. And I remember the day flying and. You mentioned two words talked with, which is different to talk that.

Callum (: 19:10

Yeah.

Digby (: 19:33

I felt the day was a talking with day and how I describe talking with, to make up a definition behind that, it's to co -create, to explore together. There's no power dynamic in the room, right? And it's interesting and surprising that you say you're intimidated because that's what's never my intent. And it's interesting how that lands, right? Like I'm saying some stuff I felt really out of my depth there too.

I don't really know what I'm supposed to be doing here, but I've got some ideas and I felt it was a talking with day. because of that, and I think because talking with is so rare in workplaces that I reckon that's the process that happened of talking with was the thing that cemented the quality of our connection.

Callum (: 20:10

Hmm. Hmm.

Callum (: 20:17

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Callum (: 20:29

Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Digby (: 20:32

And so it's interesting that I asked him. So my question was, you know, tell us about a time that shaped some of those beliefs we were talking about around many people they're at, you know, those things. And that that time was when we met. That's fascinating. And it's also interesting to me that you have moved on from needing to be liked, because I think what I'm hearing in what your story was is that we're

Dancing a dance all the time and the rules of the dance are largely determined by the stories in our head. And what I heard was that the story in your head was in part, need to be liked. And so therefore your behavior was driven by that need.

Callum (: 21:16

Yep. Because I thought you were cool.

Callum (: 21:22

Totally, Yeah, that's right. Was it a need or want? Doesn't matter actually. So I wanted you to like me. And when I say I felt intimidated by you, you didn't do that. Like I made that up. Like that's... I completely made that up. That's me going, wow, he talks a good game. He's got some great ideas. Shit, look how energetic he is. All this sort of stuff. I was

know, that's, you're a cool dude. And so I create, I create the intimidation, I create the uncomfortability, discomfort, uncomfortability, let's do it. More syllables the better. And yeah, so I create all that, and I'm thankful

Digby (: 22:05

I know go with uncomfortability. That's a great word.

Callum (: 22:19

you didn't allow either A you didn't see that or B you didn't allow that to get in the way of us having a really cool day and then to when we did meet up again to go huh and so we've always got that story we've always got that experience of that day and that's a cool thing and it was a talking with because we were sort of riffing off each other and I don't even know if we ended up doing any work out of that no no we didn't

Digby (: 22:46

It was like a day that had a start and an end in a great middle. Right. And that was kind of it. I'm curious about what was it that I did or maybe didn't do that helped you be largely good with the day. What I want to just explore that a

Callum (: 22:51

Yeah.

Callum (: 23:07

Good

Callum (: 23:11

Whoa.

Callum (: 23:15

I think, what made that such a standout day and experience was it wasn't what I thought it was going to be. Because you were different to the other people I'd experienced in that organization. So I think there was that, there was the clash. Again, coming back to expectation and actual experience.

I think the

Callum (: 23:50

Yeah, I don't know, it's really, that's... You didn't match the expectation, so that's set things up. And I think that's where I have my best experiences. If I'm thinking this is going to happen and then this, something else happens, or there's something that jars with it.

that brings out the best in me. And I think that's the point of life. And I think that's the point of doing good work. I think that's the point of leadership when we let go of what we want things to be and allow something else to be and to go with that. And because that's what we did, we just went with

that day. was a very cool experience of, huh, this is not what I expected. And you're not what I expected. You're not who I expected as well. Yeah.

Digby (: 24:55

Yeah. Let me pick up on the when we let go and allow I. I think that's a really powerful idea that is has terror packed into it, probably many people. And I know whenever I've done that and I've allowed that I've held on tightly for days, weeks, years.

Callum (: 25:00

Mm -hmm.

Digby (: 25:22

And then at some point I go, I just can't hold on anymore. I'm exhausted from trying to control this narrative, this story, this way of being. And then when I let it go, there's this massive breathe out and, you know, it feels like a physical weight being lifted. And I reckon most of us are holding on too tightly. I think most people in leadership roles have stories.

Callum (: 25:25

Yeah.

Callum (: 25:39

Mm -hmm.

Digby (: 25:47

about what it means to be a leader. And you've challenged that in this conversation. know, isn't that really about bringing people together to facilitate rather than, you know, to drive and to ensure and all of those other words. Right. And I was working with a group earlier this week, actually some senior leaders in one of the public sector agencies. And I talked about the when then gap, you know, the when then gap is when

Callum (: 26:01

Yeah. Yeah.

Digby (: 26:16

Alita says, don't worry, it'll be better when we are in two months time or whatever it might be. And I reckon the story behind that that we tell ourselves is that it's my job to make bad things go away. And there's a control that's built into that. Therefore, I need to control what happens and what people experience. And, you know, even in my intro, my reflection was, I didn't do a great job because I made you feel uncomfortable.

Callum (: 26:32

as a leader.

Callum (: 26:38

Yeah,

Callum (: 26:45

No.

Digby (: 26:45

But then you're like, you didn't make me feel uncomfortable. And it's not, you know, it's not my responsibility there about how you respond. And I think all of that come back to a holding on to an identity and a way of operating that can really limit what's possible when we bring people

Callum (: 27:06

So many things have been pinging in my head as you've been talking there. And I'll go with the last one, because I'll forget every other one, even though they're equally as important. But I think that's what you do, is you make people uncomfortable. And I love just watching your face there as I say that, because that's not a bad thing. That is exactly the point, is...

You don't make people uncomfortable with any intention to make them feel bad or less than or worse or whatever sort of negative connotation you can put to that. But you create a discomfort in order for people to go, hmm, OK, what can I do? What can we do? How can I be different? What does that mean? Why am I uncomfortable? Because like when I say you make people uncomfortable, I think you create a setting in which

Digby (: 28:01

Yes.

Callum (: 28:02

people then can feel safely uncomfortable and go, what do I do with this now? And that's one of your many talents is setting up that the setting, the environment for people to explore. Why am I uncomfortable? Because discomfort isn't bad. We've spent generations

trying to get more and more comfortable in our homes and life and work and that sort of thing. And yet the reason we exist as this planet killing species is we've been diving into discomfort. We leave the comfort of our home and we go exploring. We go seeking other things, searching for different things.

Digby (: 28:35

Yes.

Callum (: 29:00

Some of us do, some don't. Those that don't, I think, are pretty boring. But those that do just aren't. Some people, I think, seek difference and discomfort because they're running from things. I'm definitely one of those people. But I think also we like to get uncomfortable as a way of feeling alive these days because

we've got, I mean, look at our homes, their temperature and, you know, everything's controlled. So we've got the one season in our home all year round. That's been proven to be really bad for us. We, we rug up against the elements. We, we go through the same patterns. have, you know, meals timed at the same time all the time, each day of the week, regardless of what we're doing, all these sorts of things, which

mean that we get really comfortable in patterns and I'm really good at sort of pattern recognition but I'm rubbish at holding patterns. I forget to eat. I don't do the things I intend to do. My weekdays are less structured than my weekends and or whatever else. I just seem to do things a wee bit differently but if I wasn't, when I get comfortable I get bored.

And I think we need an element of discomfort in leadership as well, because I think that's when we get the best out of people, but most importantly, and this is the thing we forget, is we get the most out of ourselves. And you're no good as a leader if you're no good yourself,

Digby (: 30:54

Well, I equate the word leadership with change. know, to me, this synonymous, you know, and if you're not enabling or creating or catalyzing change, then is it really leading? You know, and I, I think the it's quite profound. This idea of. I've written down here, discomfort equals aliveness, and I think

I think you've touched on something that there's a deep human need to well, to feel alive, obviously not just to be alive, but to feel alive. Wasn't it Joseph Campbell who said, you know, I think people aren't seeking meaning in life. What they're seeking is an experience of being alive. The mythologist Joseph Campbell, who popularized the hero's journey. And and I think there's something it's almost like contra to the other.

Callum (: 31:29

Yeah. huh.

Digby (: 31:51

And perhaps in leadership space, that's, you know, there's the story of like, you know, people have got enough to comfort our job is to make them feel okay. And, I wonder whether that's actually serving a better world. And it's interesting, my responses as you picked up on my face was when you said you make people feel uncomfortable was like, ooh, you know, and I suspect

Callum (: 32:05

Yeah,

Digby (: 32:21

a number of people might feel the same. And then as you talked, it was like, huh, and that's not a bad thing. Right. And so maybe part of what I need to learn is that, you know, is to own that, you know, is to go, yeah, that's what I do. And it's in service of a good thing. Hmm. Yes.

Callum (: 32:36

But I think also, yeah, totally. And to not try to do that more, because once you start to try, then that's when you're going to make people feel uncomfortable in a way that they don't want to, you don't want them to, whatever else. Yeah. Because the point of leadership surely is to be yourself and to do the things that you don't understand how you can do, but you just do them. Right? So this is the being rather than doing.

And a lot of what I think you do comes naturally that maybe you can't explain it or it's best and that's with everybody. I certainly can't explain what I do. I don't even know what I do. Like, so you say some words in this, the intro, and I keep going back to that and not let you go off that as well. But none of those things you explained are things that I...

can do intentionally. And if I try to do them, I'll completely mess that up and it'd be awful, be cheesy, would be, you know, try hard and fake. And so a lot of the work that I do is just to be with people. And that's so much fun because I think that gives people permission to be themselves. And

I think a lot of people get caught up in trying to be something or be seen in a certain way. I think, like, so for example, when I was diagnosed with ADHD, lots of people said, yeah, well, of course you are. And I was going, what? But I've hidden this for so long. I thought I was able to mask and hide and fake and fudge and do all these sort of things. But people are like, yeah, of course you are.

Totally. And that's why we love you. And it's like, what? And that was such a huge realization. They go, actually, that's everybody. We're all hiding. We're walking around thinking that we're hiding the things that people love about us. And when we realize that and then let down the trying to hide that and let people in a wee bit more, to see more of that, that's when that real connection happens.

Callum (: 35:02

So I think you and I connected on that day. I think we've deepened that connection so much more in the time we've spent just being with each other. Cause we, we never have. I think this is the most scheduled and agenda thing that interaction we've ever had. All the rest of them have been on a whim, just take a chance. Do you want to go out and do this? Whatever it is, it's just, we just hang out and, they're magic because there's no

need to do anything, it's just being. Being with you is important.

Digby (: 35:35

word try. Yeah, and it feels like the word between do and be is try. And what? Why? Why do you think? We have we put value on trying, I'm saying we as a culture more than you and

Callum (: 36:01

I think.

There must have been this weird shift that happened sometime, generations ago... where someone proposed an idea that we should compete a bit more... and someone else said, yeah, let's do that, let's get one up on someone else. And we've run with that as a society. And we have... and so everything's a competition... to have the bigger, better TV, better house, car, whatever else... all those things that you sort

immediately go to when you set up a comparison in society, but also where work set up that way. You know, there's fewer roles at the top and we should strive to those and recruitment is a competition and like we've got and it's all completely backwards. None of it allows people to be it. It's all about trying. You know, you got to try harder when we get assessed all through the education system. That's around

being tested, standardized testing, so you're compared to other people and you're told where you fit in that or if you don't fit. And I think that sets up from a very early age the don't play, you should try to do some other things. Sit still, do things this way, learn this way as opposed to what are you interested in? And go with that.

Digby (: 37:28

And there's a, there's a gap between how you're being and how you should be. Right. And, you know, I remember my early days when I got into leadership development work, it was all about competencies and measuring competencies and how good were you against a certain standard and all of that stuff. And that's still, I guess, very, you know, if it's not predominant in our conscious language, it's certainly still there as the underbelly and.

Callum (: 37:33

Yeah,

Callum (: 37:47

Mm -hmm.

Callum (: 37:54

Yep. Mmm.

Digby (: 37:58

You know, it's it's it's really limiting. I write an article month or two ago called Weaknesses versus Limits. And just that language, I think shifting that language from. Where are you weak and therefore implying that there's a you need to close a gap and you need to try to close the gap versus how are you putting limits on yourself and where are you limiting yourself and just shifting

Callum (: 38:05

Hiya.

Callum (: 38:16

Yeah. Yeah.

Digby (: 38:27

limiting this kind of like reminds me of Michelangelo's uncarved block idea that, you know, the job of the sculptor is to remove the stone that doesn't belong. And, you know, once you do that, the statue is already in there, you know, it's there to emerge. And it's a bit like, well, if you remove your limitations, what happens? And I think we don't have that as our predominant way of thinking about making stuff happen of leading. We think about this is ideal.

Callum (: 38:32

Mm -hmm.

Callum (: 38:47

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Digby (: 38:57

that you're not there yet. So you have to put effort in to make sure you

Callum (: 39:01

Yeah, I think a lot of the people that I work with in organizations are walking around as blocks of stone and not allowing themselves to be sculpted or to sculpt themselves as well to remove those bits. Well, I think there's also, I was going to say the flip side, but I think that there is an element of those bits that we hang on to.

that we're familiar with, whether they're our limits or our weaknesses or whatever you call them, there's a safety, there's a sense of safety in those things because at least, you know, it's better the devil you know, right? The things, at least I know that's my limit. If I got rid of those, well, what would be next? And so, I don't know where I was going with that, but it's that there's a...

there's some security and going yeah, yeah, yeah, I know what these, you know what my limits are and I'll work on them in good time but actually I want to keep those there because that keeps me safe and it's better to have that identity or that brand than to have what I actually think of myself and for other people to experience that as well.

Digby (: 40:20

Tell us about you and maybe a limit you're transcending at the moment or trying to transcend or maybe one that you've recently felt like you've you've got rid of some of the stone that doesn't belong.

Callum (: 40:37

god who's wow a limit that i'm trying like i'm

Callum (: 40:50

I'm full. I'm full of limits and I think I'm self -limiting.

There's, I'm a paradox, right? I reckon I'm this wandering paradox of being

Callum (: 41:08

so carefree and so chilled out and calm and I just don't care about too many things. I'm happy in the belief that I don't know many things and I don't want to know many things. I don't care about facts or stats or who wrote this or who did like I just don't hold that sort of information but what I do do is I hold I hold experiences and emotions and

I'm fully conscious that that in itself is a limit because I go, I'm not interested in, mean, I would quite like to have some quotes and to read some books and to understand some stuff, but I just don't operate on that level. I just don't take in things that way. And so I've always had this belief that I can't be intelligent.

but I've also convinced myself that I don't believe in the concept of intelligence. And I don't know if that's real. I think what that is is a way of making myself feel okay about thinking that I'm not that intelligent. But I think I'm socially and emotionally intelligent. And so I have these, I have a,

Digby (: 42:27

Mm, I would agree.

Callum (: 42:37

I have a self -limiting approach to my life that I can't be intelligent and I'm trying to push that a little bit now. And the only way I can push that is to not go on a quiz show, is to not go to compete with people around knowledge or anything like that. But it is, I'm really curious about reading into things more. And because I'm so experience -based,

what I love to do is to read something and go, how does that make me feel? What do I think about that? And to play those two things off against each other, to go, how does it make me feel? But what do I think about that? And what's the difference? And how do I describe that difference?

Digby (: 43:25

What comes first in those two questions for

Callum (: 43:28

always, how does that make you feel? Because going to feeling then thinking is natural for me. So with my dyslexia, and I've never once been able to start at the top of page, go to the bottom and to know what was at the top of the page. I'm in every line and I isolate every line because I'm trying to experience that as well. And so I'm feeling

Digby (: 43:30

And why is

Callum (: 43:57

what's going on and I never take in the words like because what it does is it creates a story and a narrative and experience for me and I'm deep in that and so I lose my place all the time because I'm actually thinking about what the what the line means to me and

Callum (: 44:20

And so some, sometimes I go, okay, what do I think about that? And I go, well, I actually don't know what I'm thinking about because I've forgotten what the line was. But it's easy for me to go to, well, what, does that make me feel? And there's a, there's a, this is where the paradox is because I can go way off topic and go, how does that make me feel? And then as a result, what else am I thinking about? Which is completely off topic and what the, it's, it's

I guess it's my example of doom scrolling. You know, have you just keep clicking on random links and keep going through you very quickly away from the thing that you originally searched up. And that's what my experience of reading is. And so I'm trying to read more and go, OK, how does that make me feel? But also what do I think about that and coming back to this? So my default your question was what do I do first? My default is the how does that make me feel? But I have to come back to what do I think about that?

Digby (: 45:14

Why is that? Why do you have to answer the second question?

Callum (: 45:16

That's a really good question because I shouldn't have to, but I choose to because actually who cares? It doesn't matter, right? Because you read a book and go, what does that do for me? And my experience of reading a book would be different to yours and we'll get out different things. I think what's behind that is me trying to keep myself on track because I'm constantly off track. I think my entire life is completely off track.

Digby (: 45:45

How do you define track though, right? Is that what the world is saying? Is it what the workplaces that you work with are saying, you

Callum (: 45:47

Yeah.

Callum (: 45:54

No, I think that that's sort of innate in me. Like I grew up being someone I wasn't and got very used to being in this...

Callum (: 46:10

this experience of you know creating this inner world and Living in an outer world and that being quite different and also incredibly normal Like it just looked really really normal, but internally it wasn't And it was quite different and and I think that's why I'm really good at It shifting between

experience like COVID hits everyone lose their heads. I'm like, what's going on? Like why, why is everyone sort of shitting themselves? We can deal with this. It's no trouble. that I'm really good at big picture and detail all at once. Like I can do, I can shift between things. And I think, part of that is just the comfort of knowing that I can be outwardly someone, which is different to who I am inwardly. And the last sort

three years or so is, is a lot of my life has been about, well, how do I close that gap? And the

Callum (: 47:18

point is, is that I am both those people. I am who you experience and I am who I experience as well. And they are a wee bit different, but the essence is that's the whole of me as well. And I think really what I've been doing is how do I experience myself as how other people experience me and how do others experience me as I experience myself. And so that's the, that's the narrowing or the closing

off we go.

Digby (: 47:49

It might be a narrowing, could be a reconciliation. yet, even if it's never closed, right? And this is kind of looping right back to the start of our conversation. There's something about the fascinating learning. How is it that you experienced me that way? Wow, what is that telling me about the difference between how I think about me and how you experienced me? And that in itself is useful, I think, just to be able to go, right, okay. And I think maybe, certainly for me, the trick is not to be defensive or dismissive.

of those things that yesterday we did an exercise in the workshop where it was the first time this group had come together. They didn't know each other that well. And we did a thing after they presented a bit about why they're doing the program. And then I asked them all to write a post -it note down to give to each person to say, here's my first impression of you as a gift. Right. And I got it. I also got it, too. They gave it to me

Some of it wasn't surprising, but some of it was like, wow, how fascinating. And.

Callum (: 48:52

What was surprising? Like you don't have to share the content, like what was, what does the surprise mean to you?

Digby (: 49:00

The surprising stuff. Yeah. So well, the surprising stuff was actually not so much anything like negative. It was kind of like there was a consistent word that came through, which was energy. About that was for me, that pretty much everyone in the room wrote down as part of their post -it note feedback to me. And the surprising bit was how consistent that was.

And honestly, I wasn't feeling particularly energetic that day. If you listen to this, someone has been the program watch out when I'm full of beans. that was a surprising thing. And we had a conversation afterwards, though, which was what do we tend to do when we're given feedback like this? And a lot of people would say, yeah, like I just downplay it. I dismiss it because I've got all these weaknesses to work

It's uncomfortable, as you're saying, we're the most passive aggressive. Yeah. Well, but I think we're we're not also we're anti tall poppy, right? We're anti being too big for ourselves. And we had a really rich conversation about, know, all you need to do is say thank you. And leave it at that and just accept it. It's like a present, you know, it is a present. a gift. Yeah. Can I just ask you,

Callum (: 50:02

Pessive aggressive.

Digby (: 50:27

You're talking about how does it make you feel when you read? And I love that question. I think it's a question we could all ask more. I'm wondering about how this conversations either made you feel or making you

Callum (: 50:42

I'm conscious of the time. I'm annoyed that it's running out because

I like I love chatting with you, but I love these sorts of things when you and I sort of just riffing off ideas without without having any expectation of where it might go and so.

Callum (: 51:05

There's layers to this because on one hand, not one hand, but there's a layer of, this is really cool for you and I just to chat through some stuff and for us to record how we would always be talking to each other anyway, because this is what we do. And that's what I love. It's like, that's the, I reckon that's the gift. I hope someone gets some value out of this, but I think the real gift is this is you and me chatting the way we do about some stuff and

Digby (: 51:19

Yeah.

Callum (: 51:35

And there's no comparison in that. A lot of people, when you have a conversation, they're trying to one up or throw in. There was a point very early on where you shifted the perspective or changed tack a little bit to go, or it could be. And I loved how you do that. And I love how you always do that. You go, yeah, yeah, yeah. I

whatever, Callum, hear what you're saying, but it could be this as well. And I love that because, and what I, I don't mean to sound, I feel like this will come across as arrogant, but when you say those sorts of things, go, huh, I get to, realize in that moment that there's a new perspective coming and there's a shift in me and my thinking. And we sort of, we,

We talk, I think that's how ideas evolve. And you and I allow just stuff to evolve and to generate an experience of talking, but also some ideas around what it's like to be human. And we do that all the time. And so this is, know, my, what do I think of this? Or how do I feel about this? As this is just a very, very cool conversation to have. I think we could dive into a whole lot

other things and also most of all I love that this has gone where I didn't expect it to go as well but also... Why don't you pick one? Pick one.

Digby (: 53:14

Hmm. I have a whole page of questions that we haven't even touched on. OK, well, I I'm also conscious of your time and. Well, I have one, which is one that I always love to finish with, and I wonder whether you've already answered it. But the question is, what have you been reminded of or

Callum (: 53:27

Don't pick one

Callum (: 53:44

I've been reminded of just how cool it is to share some time with you.

Callum (: 54:00

What

what I've learned. This is ridiculous that I keep going back to that intro. So you experience me a wee bit different to how I experience myself with you. And that is

Callum (: 54:21

I think that's a realization that everybody needs to have. That as much as we try to be something else with someone else, they're never going to experience us the way we want them to. And so we need to let that go. Because that's getting in the way of some really cool conversations and connections. When we try to be what we think other people are expecting, it's just not going to work out.

So it's not a new realization or a learning for me, but it's a reinforcing. And I think this comes back to your natural way of making people feel uncomfortable. And maybe we need to reframe that, or maybe we actually need to rebrand what discomfort is about. As if...

Because it's a good thing, right? Getting, you know, that cheesy line, getting more comfortable with discomfort. You set up discomfort beautifully and you don't let people out of it easily. And that is a gift. So I don't know if it's a learning, that's what resonates.

Digby (: 55:38

Well, you're so articulate. I did use that word earlier and I'll use it again because I sit here and I think listeners are sitting here going the way you describe these ideas is your gift. I was certainly one of yours. This idea of rebranding discomfort. All right. There's an invitation for us to think about, right? Listeners, what is that? And thank you for your feedback about me is what I'm taking, what I've learned is

I think it is new that is that I do create discomfort. Yet my relationship with that, the idea is maybe not new, but my relationship with it is shifting as we've had a conversation that actually I'm to own that more. You know, I don't mind poking and challenging status quo. Yet I've never thought of myself as that's my superpower. So that's that's beautiful to have that given.

Callum (: 56:36

Well, it's not your only superpower, Digby. mean, you get, yeah, 100%. So I urge you to go back through the footage of this and to watch your face when I say you make people uncomfortable. And then it's about 10 or 15 seconds later, when I explain that and your face. So there's the shock and then there's the relief, right? And I think that the gap between those like

Digby (: 56:38

Yeah, it's one of them, maybe. Yeah. Right.

Callum (: 57:03

What would be fascinating, you can't do this now because the moment's gone, right? But for us to be able to record what's going on in your head in between me saying that and then explaining what I mean, because the conversation you'd be having in your head will cloud your ability to be listening to what I'm saying. Thankfully, it's being recorded so you get to hear that back again or it doesn't actually matter because what really matters is how that made you feel. And

When I explained that how that made you feel afterwards as well right now, I think that's that is a cool thing in there

Digby (: 57:37

I love it. And you have just demonstrated one of your own superpowers, right, is to see things that other people don't see or see things in a way that other people don't see. And I think that's a beautiful example of how you do that for others. And, wow, what if others could develop that too? This is probably a perfect place to not stop, but pause and press stop on the recording.

Callum (: 57:54

Cool.

Thank you.

Digby (: 58:07

And I suspect there's a part two coming up because we've got so many more questions to dig into. But man, what a rich time capsule that we've just created for ourselves and the people listening. If people wanted to find you, what's the best way for them to find you, connect with

Callum (: 58:09

No!

Callum (: 58:28

Well, I've got a cheesy website, kalamakurti .com, come to me there or check me out on LinkedIn. Lots of activity there.

Callum (: 58:41

Just hit me up. Like if you want to have a chat or send me an email, happy to riff on anything. But really, that's not what this is about. This is about you and I having a cool conversation. I really appreciated the time. Love catching up with you, having a cool chat. Been a pleasure and an honor as usual. So let's stop the record and carry on chatting.

Digby (: 59:08

It has been the highlight of my day and it's been, think, hopefully not just for me, but for everyone listening. And I suspect for you, there's a lot of gems to chew over for days and weeks to come. So thank you so much. See you

Callum (: 59:11

We'll

Callum (: 59:25

sure. Thanks