42. How to Build Solutions and Cultures That Last | James McCulloch

James McCulloch (: 00:10

I just remember thinking, what a strange thing to think about your legacy. So I don't like the word. I prefer the word impact and lasting impact because it's not about me. It's not about my legacy in those roles. It's about does the organisation feel better, feel a better place to turn up every day after you've been there and does some of that stuff last? And guess what? Some of it won't because someone else will do it differently. But maybe there's some changes that are so baked in after you've been there.

that people don't want to go back, which I think is really cool.

Digby Scott (: 00:47

What if the secret to lasting leadership impact isn't about building your legacy, but about accepting that you're just passing through? And what if the shift from trying to prove yourself to truly backing yourself changes everything about how you show up as a leader?

Today I'm joined by James McCulloch, who's the CEO of Victim Support New Zealand. He's led one of the country's most remarkable organisational transformations. James brings a fascinating perspective, which has been shaped by managing high profile parks in the heart of London, navigating complex turnarounds and now wrestling with a tension between ambition and balance as a seasoned leader. In our conversation, we're exploring how moving from a hero mindset to a host

mindset creates lasting change and why James has this aversion to the word legacy and what it means to lead with the confidence knowing that your mere presence is enough to have the impact that you want to have. So whether you're focused on proving yourself or backing yourself, this conversation will change how you think about the mark you leave and the space you create for others. Hi, I'm Digby Scott and this is Dig Deeper, a podcast where I have conversations with depth that will change the way you lead.

Digby Scott (: 02:10

James, welcome to the show. Yeah, we have lots of conversations offline and this is first time we've actually recorded in an online format where people are going to be listening to it from the public. So I'm excited to continue the way we usually continue in conversations. It's just go where we go. And now I've been waiting for this for a very long time, this conversation. So I'm glad to have you here. I'm curious, it's Friday morning.

Thank you, Digby. It's great to be here.

Digby Scott (: 02:40

How is your energy after this week?

It's high. My energy is high. And I'm going to take a sip of lemon and ginger tea. My throat is sore. And that's through too much talking all week, talking about exciting things. So we're pitching really high at Victim Support at the moment. We've done great things. We've transformed lots of amazing things, but we want to go a lot further. So we've been pitching really high at the moment for a big thing that I think will make a big difference for victims in this country. And you know that time when you put your heart and soul into crafting

piece of work, a proposal, all the things that go with it. That's what we've been doing for the last few weeks, the last few days. We submitted it this week and I feel really energised about that. And I think the thing that's been so cool about it is that our whole leadership team and our team throughout the country are so behind it. And that just feels like another really unifying moment at Victim Support. So I'm tired, but I'm tired in the best possible way.

It's that good tired. Well, when you've done a good workout, right? It's like, yeah, feeling good about this. I've earned it. The way you talk about my whole leadership team is behind it. Now, any CEO or senior leader, I think would love to be able to say that with their own leadership team. And I think it's a little too rare a lot of the time. What does it take?

Yeah, I think so.

Digby Scott (: 04:03

to get an entire leadership team of people who typically run their silos, run their functions, to get behind an organisation-wide initiative.

my goodness. Now I'm worried that they might not be, you know, when they listen back to this. That they're going to be messaging me and saying, you made a massive assumption there, James. Actually, I know it to be true because I've asked them all collectively and individually about this big thing. Are we all okay with it? You know, if we get it, are we okay to go for it? Look, I think it takes a lot of things. know, Victim Support's been through an interesting journey. These are people that I handpicked mostly to come onto this team in the last three years. They knew what they were coming into, unlike

me three years ago. I think there's been some big bonds that have been forged through adversity there. I think we've shown huge vulnerability with each other. We know a huge amount about each other's lives. I think we spend more time talking about each other and our wellbeing than we do about even work sometimes. That means the work just seems to get easier. We seem to have found each other at a point in time where we all feel this is what we want to be doing and it won't last forever. We want to keep it lasting for as long as we can. But I think it's

There's a lot of things, there's purpose, there's great people, and then there's also just getting out their way and letting them do amazing work in whatever craft they have from finance to people to technology, liberating them to do awesome work, which they do every day.

You know, the way I'd sum up how you've described that is there's not just head work here, there's heart work and you are connecting at a human level first by the sounds of it and you've fostered that, you're facilitating that, you're enabling that.

James McCulloch (: 05:39

We had to do that because things were so grim. When we first came into that space, there was so much that needed sorting out, so we needed to look after ourselves. If we weren't looking after ourselves as a leadership team, we were really going to struggle to do what we needed to do. I don't think I've ever been part of a leadership team like it. And actually that's what my colleagues tell me, that we're so open with each other because I think every leadership team has got life issues happening for all those people around the table. But most of the times we don't feel comfortable sharing them, but we happen to have done that. Maybe that's the environment we're in.

Victim Support maybe that's part of it.

Yeah, perhaps it is. It's something because it's such a fairly emotionally charged territory that you work in, right? So emotions come with the territory. So you might as well be those fully vulnerable, open humans that you need to also enable in the work you're doing too,

Yeah. Look, I think the thing that surprises people about Victim Support, whether it's in our leadership team, our national office on our front-line, you know, I travel around a lot with our amazing front-line folks. There's a lightness to it as well. There has to be a humor. There has to be a deep connection through our values because the work is challenging. The conversations are tough. The words that we band around are not words that you would band around normally. I mean, you know, we are looking at metrics around

What's an example of that?

James McCulloch (: 06:56

serious crime. We used to look at metrics around suicide and homicide is discussed regularly. And these are all words that, you know, you don't find yourself talking about regularly socially. So I think the balance to that is the great connection and fun. I'm going to say it, the fun that we have together, because we should, we should.

Listen to your language. There's a lot of we as opposed to I. And to me, that speaks volumes about your leadership philosophy. And I actually want to and maybe this is potentially unusual territory for you, but I want to focus on you and your journey to here. We met would have been a decade ago, perhaps. Yeah. And in fact, you took over from me in the role that I was leading.

in the organisation Inspire Group, was called and is called. And we can come back to that handover. think that would be interesting. We do. And I want to get into and I think it would be useful context for people listening just to understand a little bit more about James McCulloch and your journey defining your voice as the leader you are as CEO today. And as we're preparing for the conversation, you mentioned to me time in your life, you're at 28 years old, I think.

And the way in which you were leading the way in which you were thinking about leadership to me sounds quite different to how you are now. You know, just a few short years ago, right? Tell us a little bit about how you were working, operating, thinking, being back then.

Okay. So look, I mean, I've been in the world of work for almost 30 years, which terrifies me, straight out of uni. did a degree in landscape management. I got a job working for a local authority in the UK, working parks and reserves, the kind of typical route with that qualification. Did a bit of consulting work. And then I had this like amazing break at 27, 28. I saw this job, which was like my dream job, which was to head up all the parks and reserves for the city of London. And I thought one day I'll do that. That'd be like my pre-retirement job.

James McCulloch (: 09:00

So I'm going to apply for it at 27 because I won't get an interview or anything, but I can call them, right? And I can say, Hey, what do I need to do for the next 20 years to get an interview for a job like this? And I got an interview and I got the job. So I was just terrified about that prospect of going from managing two or three people as I was to about 120 people and 150 high profile sites across London. I spent six years there in this kind of massive.

learning experience, it was exciting, right? You know, I think the first weekend I was at work, we were doing the Queen's lunch for the Golden Jubilee at the Guild Hall. We were doing all the floral decorations for that. She was coming in the next day for that that was televised all around the world. So there was this kind of inner voice that was terrified and there was this outer voice of trying to be confident. I wanted to make everyone happy. I wanted to be this amazing consultative leader. I wanted to be the opposite of some of the bad bosses that I'd experienced.

so far in my life and I had to overcome, hopefully I did, this kind of weird thing that I had replaced someone who'd been in the role for 30 years. I was probably 20 years younger than most people I worked with and managed. So I learned a lot and I still do this now, but I just think there's amazing power in just listening and picking up those amazing things that people say around you and all those cues and clues they give. But it was a challenging six years, long days, long nights, but fun. I think that was like

three kids and Catherine, my wife, had a job in London as well. It was the right time to be doing that sort of high-energy stuff in London.

sense just listening that that was a time about feeling like you had to prove yourself. I get the sense now it's more about you back yourself. What does it take to shift from primary motivation to prove yourself to being more someone who backs yourself? you reckon what in your experience?

James McCulloch (: 10:52

I think that comes through good and bad experiences. It comes through trying stuff, experimenting with a bunch of stuff, and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. And I think there's those moments as a leader where you're faced with a big challenge or one of your team members comes to you and you kind of instinctively know what to do about it. I just remember having that feeling increasingly in the last few years that that would have taken the 27-year-old James two or three days to figure that thing out. And now it's like, I think we should just do this, this, and this.

and someone goes, right, let me just write that down. What did you say again? And you sort of think, there must be a reason that experience is valued because we're picking up these nuggets throughout the years and we're learning some ways not to do things as well. So I think that there was probably a shift in the last 10 years or so. And the time at Inspire, which we both had, you know, the great thing about working in consulting is you gather sort of...

hundreds of different experiences throughout that time that you'll never get if you're in the same role with one organisation. So maybe that was a shift. Victim Support where I am at the moment, definitely has helped me shift that a lot. But that confidence isn't always there. We will always get things right and wrong as a leader. But I think, yeah, you're right. If you get handed a big leadership role at 27, 28, a big bit of it, certainly for me anyway, was, my God, I'm going to get found out every day.

Yeah. this, and I'm probably, feel that less often now. I still have it sometimes, but I had it pretty much every day when I woke up.

Yeah. And I'm saying my first big leadership role, I think it was about 28 or 29 and it was terrifying. And I felt like I had to put on this big old facade every day of I know what I'm doing and I'm the boss. So look to me and the pressure I put on myself to look like I was in control and yeah, show that I was worthy of the role. I not just to my boss, but to anyone.

James McCulloch (: 12:46

Yeah.

Digby Scott (: 12:50

particularly people who are older than me. And it was incredibly suffocating to my authenticity. There was a lot of energy I was putting into managing that as opposed to moving things forward.

I think the big difference, Digby, and I think about what I used to wear, what I used to say, how I would think of things before I said them. It's kind of like, what would a really competent leader say in this situation? Think about that, then say that, rather than just instinctively think, what would I say in this situation? So you're right, there's like a double use of energy throughout every day. And then there's that over analysis of, did that go down well? What do people think?

I think as we go through life, maybe this just happens in life anyway, but hopefully we think about that stuff less. I still think it's cool though. I mean, I would recommend to anyone to put themselves forward for a role that you think you've got no chance of getting, because you might just get it or you might get some opportunity off the back of that. And I've really tried, I suppose in my career, and we've done this recently at Victim Support, to give up and coming leaders that opportunity to make a couple of extra steps in one go because

It always goes well. know, if you give them the right support, wrap the right care around them, give them the right clarity, I think it's fantastic.

do you frame an opportunity like that with an up-and-comer? Like what do you say to them in a way that helps them lean into it rather than lean away from it?

James McCulloch (: 14:17

I'm smiling because I can think and I won't give too much away, but I can think of two conversations for two current members of our leadership team that I had to frame that conversation. And hopefully they'll smile when they listen back. But I think it's really all starts with, I really think you could do this. I absolutely know that you could do this and I'll give you every support and encouragement to do it. And I want to give you that opportunity. So what do you think? So it starts with, I believe in you. And then the second piece is, is what do you think? And I think the other thing is maybe sharing

how uncertain I've felt when that opportunity was given to me as well and how uncertain I still feel now in some situations. So it's generally gone pretty well.

I reckon I woke up one day not that long ago, realizing, actually, I do know some stuff. Hey, my experience, you mentioned, you know, the value of experience is really helped me a lot. But it was probably later in life that I got to a point where I saw what I'm great at and really believed it and started to not just back myself intellectually, but really embody it. That's fairly recent.

Whereas up until then, I reckon I relied on other people, mentors, bosses, colleagues, reminding me of my brilliance and showing their belief in me. That was kind of the thing I really needed. It had to be an external source of validation. And I remember a time when a lady in Perth where I was living, would have been early 30s recovering from a big burnout from that first big corporate leadership role.

And she invited me to be the next president of the International Coach Federation, which is like the professional body for executive coaches, cetera, for in Western Australia. And I'm like, I'm only 32 or 33 or something. I'm not up for this. She goes, yes, you are. And actually, this is the thing that will shift you out of this lack of confidence that I've been feeling after the, or through the burnout recovery.

Digby Scott (: 16:22

And it was not just her belief in me, but then her nurturing of me that made a huge difference to me. Like you say, taking a couple of big leaps forward in my own leadership. And I'm forever grateful for her names. Her name's Wendy Campbell. Wendy, if you're listening, thank you. It is that role of showing others, isn't it? I'm wondering what your, what the current version of you would say to the 28 year old version of you now.

What advice or encouragement would you give that person?

It'll all be all right. It'll all be all right in the end. I think would be just to chill out a little bit more, learn to switch off and learn to enjoy what's around you as well. I don't think I spent enough time doing that in those early years. And maybe that's kind of part of it. You're constantly running to keep up and to be this kind of leader that you kind of imagine someone should be in those roles with those titles rather than enjoying in everything that comes with it and experiences that you get to have.

I was just thinking about what you said. I had the same experience. A great coach talked about heat experiences. So deliberately give yourself heat experiences, growth experiences, discomfort experiences, because you're capable of way more than you think. And you'll know what to do when you get there. You may go through some feeling uneasy and feeling a bit unwell and all those things when you go into those situations, but you'll kind of know what to do. And I had a...

similar experience. ended up on the International Parks Federation and doing various roles with that and getting to do a bit of speaking and going places around the world. This was more sort of in my thirties. And it was because I realized that no one else was saying yes. So you kind of go to these meetings and someone say, who wants to volunteer to do this or lead this project? Everyone just sits on their hands. So I just said yes. And generally the other thing I picked up is very few people will put themselves forward for things, but give it a go.

James McCulloch (: 18:19

The opposite of that, thinking about what we learn as we get older, I guess, is what we're not good at. So that 27, 28-year-old James was trying to be good at everything. He was trying to be this great consultative leader, be across every single detail, be the most prepared person in the room. And I guess I've learned now that there's some things that you're kind of instinctively good at as a leader and there's some things that you're not so good at. So I'm not great on immersing myself in every detail.

of what we do in our organisation, because I'm very blessed to have amazing people who do that every day. But I'm more comfortable probably getting out and speaking about it and thinking about what we're going to do next. Maybe that comfort and confidence comes with a bit of age as well. I don't have to prove myself in that space anymore. I'm not that person.

There's something about the wisdom that you get from experience of trying a heap of stuff, right? And learning what you're good at, what you're not just through experience and also what lights you up and what doesn't light you up. Right. And just by trying stuff out, that's what I say to my kids who are kind of entering early adulthood. I'll just say the next decade, just go and try a whole lot of stuff to say yes to everything and build in time and have people around you can help you learn from that, you know, and then

that will set you up for your 30s and beyond. I think that's really, really important.

I agree, some of our kids are similar ages to yours as well. And their lives, their careers will take the most amazing twists and turns, aren't they? In the next 10, 20, 30 years that we can't even imagine. I didn't know what I wanted to do. I thought I wanted to be an accountant. That was what I was going to university to do. had a summer job as a gardener and I decided to switch and do landscape architecture because it's felt more fun and I get to spend more time outside, which I still love. So say yes to everything. it's only a job. It's only a...

James McCulloch (: 20:09

Of course, you can actually come out of that if it's not working for you. And I'm so sad. I know it's difficult at the moment, particularly in Wellington. If you have a job, you hold onto it, right? Because the climate's not easy. In usual times, it's really sad to hear of people hanging on in a role that's making them desperately unhappy because I've had one or two in my career that have done that. work is a big part of our lives and we can pretend that it isn't. So again, try stuff, but if it's not igniting you, come out of it.

because it's just too painful to continue.

Yeah, I've had a couple of times in my career where it's like, yeah, I stayed a couple of years too long there and it was it was driven by fear. And as soon as I'd moved on, it was like, hallelujah release, you know, and I can get on with the next chapter. That's a challenge. want to come to today and your role today and how you think about the work you're doing now, you know, in CEO role. You mentioned to me this idea of you're just passing through. Tell us what you mean by that.

Yeah. You know, this is a conversation you and I had a long time ago. Do you remember we talked about like fixed term versus permanent roles? don't know where we were. sort of reflected that we're all fixed term. Yeah. Some of us just don't know it and awesome. And some of us haven't expressed it. So, know, it's good. Everything's going to come to an end. I think as leaders, we are all passing through. Hopefully we're trying to make things a little bit better than the day that we arrived. I'd like to think that

With amazing help, I've been able to achieve some of that so far at Victim Support. There's a lot more to do yet, but we are just passing through and there's a lifespan to that as well. And if you're very lucky, you make some enduring difference there and then someone else will come and shape it a different way as well. I strongly believe that our role is just to try to nudge the dial a little bit in the time that we're there and hopefully to inject some...

James McCulloch (: 22:08

thing that's particularly important to you in terms of how you lead or what you think a culture should be in. And if you're very lucky, some of that stays when you go as well. Not all of it, but some of it does.

How has that idea of just passing through evolved for you? Because I'm imagining you haven't always thought that way. I'm particularly interested in this idea of legacy and this idea that, you know, does it have to be about you leaving a legacy or is it something more subtle than that? So there's a couple of questions there. I'm wondering how your thinking's evolved.

There's two great questions in there, isn't there? So I remember, and you've made me think a lot about this London job because I loved it actually. It was a great adventure. And I remember when I landed it, maybe a year into it, someone said to me, hey, this will do you. You could do this till you retire really, couldn't you? Because other people have. Because I think the guy I took over from had done it for 30 years. And I thought, yeah, I could. I've cracked it. I don't have to go for another job ever again. And after a few years, you realize that there are many other opportunities out there that you want to do.

So yeah, I've generally done things for four, five, six, seven years, sometimes shorter. For me, there's kind of a rule around maybe challenge and reward, probably enjoyment comes into it as well. So if those sort of three things are in play, things are going great. And it's the challenge of knowing when it's time to think about going before it's time to go.

How do you know when that time is?

James McCulloch (: 23:32

I think you know when you're just not as ignited about it as you were in the past. And I just want to make it clear, if any of my team ever listened to this, but I have no intention of disappearing from Victim Support for a while yet. We've got some very big things that we all want to achieve together, but there will come a point where there's another organisation that I want to go to. And I know also, if we think about those things that we love doing as a leader and things we don't, I know now, and I probably regret this sometimes, that I love

the idea of the turnaround organisation and the turnaround challenge. And that can take years, right? I mean, it's taken three years so far at Victim Support. I think it will take many more to get it to where we want it to be. And I've done a couple of roles that have been absolute BAU roles. know, this predecessor got it to this place. All you got to do is maintain it. I don't know how you'll be able to do that, but just keep it there. I have zero interest, zero interest in those roles.

And I think it's great that some people want to do those because there's work that goes into that maintaining that position. But that's not me, even though it comes at a big price. If I think about the first six months of Victim Support, the lack of sleep, the angst, the tears as I went around the country, all of the things we had to uncover, but I would do it again because it was the right thing to do. And it was a great challenge that was given to me. I didn't know I was coming to that, but I had no choice but just to go with it.

idea of passing through it, I'm really deeply interested in this thing. I'm wondering if we think of ourselves as, I'm here for a fixed term rather than permanent. How do you reckon that changes your thinking with your day-to-day decisions? How does that frame make it a difference to how you show up?

I think there's probably more of a sense of urgency in what you're doing. But I guess I have that anyway, because I kind of feel if there's something you uncover that needs improving, why would you wait? I remember three or four roles ago having a disagreement with my board because why do we have to do this so soon? Why can't we do this in a few years? And I was like, well, why not now? Why would we make beneficiaries wait? Why would we make our people wait for this in the future? Let's just do it now. So I think there's an urgency.

Digby Scott (: 25:23

Aha, interesting.

James McCulloch (: 25:49

But I think that should be there for us anyway as leaders.

And maybe that's a useful way of creating urgency. Like I'm not here forever. I want to create a lasting impact. That means doing these things and I've only got a short period of time. So why wait?

I think the other thing, Digby, is the world is so uncertain at the moment, which is something I think about a lot. You know, it troubles me and I feel very blessed to be in a role that I'm in that makes a difference for people every day. It's a kind of small thing that we can do in a really turbulent world at the moment. I think at the moment, if we have an opportunity to do something or rectify something, why would we wait? Even if it's hard to do it layered on top of each other, I think of all the things we've done this year at Victim Support, it's crazy to have done all the things we try to achieve.

in one go, but it was a deliberate decision because there's opportunities that have to be grabbed and they might not be there in the future. it's almost impossible now to plan ahead and think, okay, we'll do that in year three of our plan. We'll do that in year five. We don't know what next year looks like. So if it's there, grab it.

Grab it and do it. Now you have an aversion to the word legacy. Tell us about that.

James McCulloch (: 26:59

Yeah. okay. This is a really weird version. But so the night that I finished the university, I found out that same day or the next day that I got my first job, which was great, was the day that Tony Blair came to power in the UK. was 97, June 97. That won't mean so much to most of these listeners, but for some, it was kind of a big moment in the UK and it was quite exciting. But then he kind of talked a lot, I think way too much about legacy.

I just remember thinking, what a strange thing to think about your legacy. So I don't like the word. I prefer the word impact and lasting impact because it's not about me. It's not about my legacy in those roles. It's about does the organisation feel better, feel a better place to turn up every day after you've been there and does some of that stuff last? And guess what? Some of it won't because someone else will do it differently. But maybe there's some changes that are so baked in after you've been there that people don't want to go back.

which I think is really cool.

Yeah. So the way I'm making that distinction between legacy and impact is legacy has a kind of almost a more of an ego component to it. Yeah. It's got you in it. Whereas impact is actually all about what's happening out there rather than it's not a focus on you and your agency and leadership and stuff like that.

I agree, I think it's the difference between my legacy is versus, hey, the impact that we made together or the impact we made when we worked together there is that, which I prefer.

Digby Scott (: 28:29

Yeah, there's that language again, we versus I, right? And it's servant leadership. It's the humility of the, was it Jim Collins talked about level five leadership, which is a, that beautiful blend of fierce will and deep humility, right? It's, it's having that, this is what matters and I'm merely a channel for it or I'm a catalyst for it, but I'm, I'm not the point.

Yeah, and I'm smiling because I can smile about it now, but three years ago, I suppose it was when I was traveling around the country, when I first went to Victim Support, and you sort of instinctively go everywhere. We were in about 60 police stations at that time. And the list of stuff that people gave me that they wanted fixing with that organisation was incredible. And through laughter and sometimes tears and all sorts of range of emotions. And I remember just continually saying to people as I traveled on those long days, look, I'm just the CEO.

can't actually do that much about it myself, which people found weird, like the CEO's some superhero. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like, no, I'm just the CEO. I'm just one guy. All I can do is take your lists and go away and find some people to help me. And maybe we'll find some money as well. We've got to find some money. So I will do that for you. But very little of this will shift until we find some people to help do this with us. And I think, so it's not my legacy. It's the impact that a bunch of amazing people

That's weird to hear.

James McCulloch (: 29:50

and making it Victim Support. First of all, they spoke up and wanted change. So those are the real heroes. And then a bunch of other people decided, this feels like a good adventure with a great purpose. So I'll come along. I'll come along for the ride and do that. And by the way, when we recruited the new team, the new leadership team, that was the language we used was that this is not going to be an easy gig. It's going to be a bit of a wild adventure, but we've got a vision about what we want to achieve. And if that appeals to you.

We'd love to hear from you. And there were people that it didn't appeal to and that was great. But I think that going back to your earlier question, that's probably how we ended up with such an amazing leadership team because they knew that was the challenge. That was the quest we were going on and we're still right in the middle of it and it feels good.

The thing that grabs me there is about there's a seduction when you go out and ask people, yeah, how can I help and what do you need that you can style yourself as the hero? You know, okay, I'll come in with my cape and I'll then I'll take off with my cape and I'll, you know, and I'll be the one who sorts out all your problems. And what I'm hearing in the way you describe it, it's way more nuanced than that. It's like, look, yeah, I'll do what I can do and I'll try and find some people to help yet.

I'm not hearing, don't worry, you just sit there and I'll come back and it'll all be sorted because that's setting up a pretty unhealthy dynamic for this reliance on you or the executive team to be the heroes and provide all the solutions. And I'm hearing you didn't go down that seductive path.

No, and there's another side to that, which I've learned so much about at Victim Support, which is the classic kind of victim and rescuer as well. Yes. Yes. Yes. Which, you know, kind of can play out in our work in other ways if we're not careful. So I don't think it was a new thing for me at Victim Support, but I had to really turn it up to 10 in terms of the listening, the empathy, the reassurance, the giving of hope. And then I hope, you know, injecting bit of humor into that as well, that it's really just me.

James McCulloch (: 31:51

but I will go out and try and find the right people to help us with this as well. I think that people are often over-promised by the traveling CEO as well. He parachutes into town, listens, takes a list and say, hey, by the next time you see me, it'll be all fixed. And the reality is that it takes months or years in some cases, and some of the fixing is those front-line folks themselves that are gonna have to do stuff. So we really focused in on that. And I'm really proud actually of...

100%.

James McCulloch (: 32:18

I mean, we've launched our new case management system, which may sound dull, but it's kind of like the whole way that we work to support victims and the work that our GM digital, our GM service delivery have done on that and our people team, it's kind of exemplary in terms of this is a new platform launch that people love and they got behind. so it was all of that kind of collaborative work and honesty that we can't make this amazing fix. We're going to build it together. Yeah, it's been pretty cool.

Which leads me to if you fixed term, right? You're only passing through. How do you ensure lasting impact beyond your tenure? What are the things to most pay attention to or not to do in your mind just to ensure that that impact does resonate, you know, it's sustainable. What does that take?

I think that's about building in really embedded solutions. So we could have done some really quick fixes of Victim Support. Okay. We could have replaced the creaky case management system that they all said needed doing three years ago, probably 10 years ago. Right. Or we could have spent the time reframing our whole core purpose and one way of being and culture and then wrapping a way of working around that. So I like to think that there's a kind of momentum.

built in there now that you couldn't stop if you tried. It's kind of the way that people demand to work at our organisation and well-being first going from kind of a thing that I banded around in those first few weeks to now almost a kind of inbuilt demand for how our people want to work, which is ultra flexibility, ultra openness about what's going on in their lives. And the work fits around that because they're all amazing driven.

passionate people who will get the work done. But the idea that we all work or have our best, most effective hours between a fixed time every day is that we know that's nonsense anyway, don't we? you know, many organisations still try and wedge us into that. I hope that that's lasting impact, whoever comes next in many years in the future will do that and listen and learn. That's a very important part of how we work in our organisation.

James McCulloch (: 34:38

It's where flexible we put well being first.

And if you were to flip the questions, say, well, if you were to set it up so it wouldn't have lasting impact and it was, it was just a house of cards, what would you do to create that situation? Like let's go the counter of that just to make it really clear. What are the things that you would do to, if you really wanted to muck it up?

Oh, yeah, it's pretty easy, isn't it? So you do some of the same things. You travel around and you listen and you make the lists. And one way of doing it is to never appear again. Like, literally, that was the only time they ever saw you. The other is to make the most outlandish promises on the spot with the most ridiculous timeframes and don't deliver those either. And the other one is to actually try, and I think lots of organisations do this, to try and do some stuff, but do it too quickly and do it not deeply thought through and do it...

to people not with people as well or alongside people. So there's never that true buy-in. And look, sometimes that's just the way it has to be out of necessity as well. I do accept that. There was a really unique set of circumstances that I came into Victim Support. Amazing organisation, strong people, courageous people, but people who spoke up and said enough was enough, including in the media in my first couple of weeks in those news hub pieces. So we were right out there. There was no...

escaping the fact that we were kind of in the white heat of a bit of crisis. So yeah, you can do the opposite. And you know, I probably did the opposite in some of those earlier roles where what I imagine in terms of reasonable timeline is not actually that reasonable at all. Things take a lot longer than you always think.

Digby Scott (: 36:21

Absolutely. And there's that lovely challenge there between sense of urgency, but also a sense of pace, pacing it.

Look, I think the other thing you just made me think is that as that new emerging leader and earlier in our careers, we want to please, right? Because that's the position we've been given. You you've put me into this role, you've given me this title, I'm the best paid person in the organisation, so I should be able to make things happen really fast for you. And it feels good to make life better for you. So maybe that's what drives that kind of unrealistic expectation. I'll fix it, I'll do it, I'll sort it.

I probably wouldn't have the confidence in those earlier roles to say to a team that maybe were crying in front of me, hey, I hear you, but there's not a lot I can do about it myself, but bear with me. I kind of know what to do, but I'm to have to go find some people to help me and it will take some time.

Yeah. Shifting gears a little bit. We're both at an age and stage of our careers and at life where, you know, we're seasoned. We've done some great things. We're still doing great things and we love what we do. Yet my sense is for both of us that it's not all about work. And I'm personally feeling, and I'm curious about you, there's this tension between ambition and

richness, like career ambition, I suppose you could say wanting to make a difference lasting impact. Yet it's not really all about work and proving myself anymore. How is that going for you? Like, where are you at with that tension or that? Is it attention for you? Is it just me? What's going on for you in that space?

James McCulloch (: 37:58

No, it's not just you, Digby. Okay, so there you go, straight away. That's all I need to say. I think about that a fair bit. So, you know, I'm at a similarly similar stage with sort of family that you are, I know, because we've taken our respective boys down to uni together. children disappearing off doing their own thing into the world, that's amazing. Maybe a bit more time to do hobbies that we like doing, a bit more time to think, which is really, cool. Bodies are creaking a bit more than they used to.

Yeah

James McCulloch (: 38:26

but that's okay, we just push them harder, right? And there's things that I like doing. I mean, I love cycling to work, I love rowing. I was lucky enough to go skiing last week with our family and all be together, which is very rare. I'd like to do loads more stuff like that. And I think what I'm learning as I get older is that time and energy isn't actually as elastic as you think it is. So there's a very fixed amount of time and energy we've got in any week and how you want to spend it is a big, big question. But.

If we can do things now as leaders in maybe an hour or two, or we know instinctively what to do, things that would have taken us days or weeks to concoct in those early years, there's got to be something in that, in that we can make that impact without maybe putting as much hard effort into it as we had to in the early years. So I'm sort of fascinated by that. So I know I don't want to work any longer than I have to, because I've got lots of other things I want to do and places I want to go.

But work is a really important part of me as well, as long as it's purposeful work.

What's the tension that you might experience there?

The tension is that, and maybe this is my experience, I know that whatever role I go to in the rest of my career, it's always temporarily harder. know, whatever role you go to, whatever job you do, whether you're a leader or whatever role, it's always harder in the first few weeks and months because you're getting used to new context, new environment, new people. I have a fear of creating more balance in my life, which I've been able to do a little bit better recently over the last year or so, and kind of throwing that away through chasing.

James McCulloch (: 39:58

a really great opportunity, but I kind of know maybe deep down that there's some safeguards I can put around that. Knowing that this is the way that I work and this is the balance that I have. I admire leaders who go into really senior roles and I can think of one right now, who I met the other day in Wellington, who's gone into a very, very high profile position, but has been really deliberate with his team about, hey, you know, I will be available at this time, I'll do this, but yeah.

What sort of things?

James McCulloch (: 40:25

There's some things I want to achieve at weekends. There's some things I want to do. So I'm not around then. And I kind of like that confidence.

What do you reckon it takes to have confidence to say that I'm not available full time?

It takes confidence. takes the confidence to know that the impact you're making when you are around is more than enough.

I was running a leadership program for a company last week and the CEO came in right at the end of the day and he said to me, what do want me to say? And I said, you don't need to say anything. The fact that you've showed up is plenty message enough, right? The fact that you've taken the time to come along and show your interest and be present, that's huge. And I think often as leaders, we

We say we've got to have a script and we've got to get the messaging right and all that. But probably we're putting too much pressure on ourselves. Yes, we have to be present and yes, we have to care. But it doesn't have to be as convoluted or as detailed as maybe we might think.

James McCulloch (: 41:33

I agree. And I think if I can think of roles that I perhaps didn't align with as well, it's where there was an expectation for the CE to be across everything. And I'm like, that's not the CE role. That's complete misunderstanding of what I'm there to do. That assumes that every other leader in the organisation isn't to be trusted, first of all. And so it assumes all sorts of things. So I think part of having the confidence to not be available on call all the time,

is that you know you have an amazing team. But equally, mean, the world of work that we're in at Victim Support, the reality is that some of those things will be emergencies. So one of the things that I did quite early on, and I think we've generally kept to it, is unless it's an emergency, let's not email each other after 6 p.m. at all on a Friday afternoon, because what the hell are you gonna do with that? What are you gonna do with it? Just gonna sit with it.

Yeah, I this.

James McCulloch (: 42:26

And also as leaders, have to recognize that we have an additional power. If we email the whole team at 9 p.m. at night, we're probably ruining a couple of hundred people's evenings, because they're going to read it, because they're going to feel compelled to read it. It doesn't really matter. I think... So there's creating some balance and some guardrails around it. It's not something I would have felt so comfortable with in the past. I would have wanted to prove myself more, I think. So maybe it comes back to what you've been saying is that with that age and experience,

honouring in that.

James McCulloch (: 42:56

You kind of know deep down that you can make a difference and the best way you can make it is to have better balance in your life. Maybe wherever I go next, that's kind of how I'll be because I know that if you want to get the best out of me, I need to have this other stuff in my life as well.

That's awesome. You mentioned that you would love to chat about the handover wall. The fact that we both did a certain role in a certain organisation called Inspire Group. What's interesting to you about that time for us where I was there, then I left and you came in.

Yeah. I remember the first time that we met in the lobby, we had a cup of tea at the Intercontinental Hotel in Wellington. But now knowing us both more, like, that's such a weird place for us to go and hang out. That's just not really a place that we would go. Why did we choose that? We were trying to impress each other. But now I know so much more about you. I wouldn't go there. I think that's a really interesting example. Okay. So I took over from you in a role.

working for a company called Inspire Group, which is still there and thriving and it is a great organisation. But I suppose like every role, what that taught me is that the way that you doing one role is going to be different to way I'm doing it. The title may look the same, the context may be the same. And I think that's a good lesson. I don't remember you handing me any detailed handover notes. It's not your style.

I I'd left and there was a vacuum.

James McCulloch (: 44:19

There was a vacuum for a little while. I think it's always useful to go hang out with the person that did your job before. That's what I took from that. And I've always done that. I had a great cup of tea and some really interesting conversation with the person I took over from at Victim Support. And I think it's always courteous to seek those people out and listen. And there's bits you absorb and there's bits you discount, but there's never any harm in that conversation. The other thing it reminds me of, and it makes me sad when I see this, is new leaders coming in.

we see this politically as well, don't we? And talking way too much about their predecessors, often blaming everything on them. Yeah, it's never heaping praise on them. And I'm like, there comes a point where it's not about who came before you. Okay, you're here now and you're going to try and make an impact and hopefully some of it lasts. But I think that's an easy trap for people to fall into as well.

Yeah, no, I love that. The way I think about it is it's the context will be ever shifting. And so you can't expect that how I led is how you're going to lead because the context is shifting. The strategy might be shifting, but it is a really wise thing to do. You're part of the story. So why wouldn't you read the chapter before you so you can see?

how you want to continue the story, right? That's the way I think about it. And I always wondered about what sort of mess did I leave?

We'll talk about that offline.

James McCulloch (: 45:50

Yeah.

But you know, because you can't leave it all tied up in a bow, right? There's always going to be challenges. But if there was a mess, I apologize.

That wasn't dramatic, but you're all right. One of the things that is useful about having those conversations is learning more about people, right? So you're trying to gather these bits of intel and triangulate all these kind of data sources about people to try and help you make a flying start. And that's something you can't replicate other than going to speak to people. And sometimes people's perception is different, but I think it's brilliant to go seek out these people and try and learn their experiences and their lessons as well.

Yeah, learning is the key thing. That's awesome. Anything that we haven't explored, James, that would be nice to dig into for a bit.

We've covered some ground, haven’t we? You've taken me right back to London. You've tried to make me think about what I'm gonna do next in my life and how I'm gonna maintain balance in all of those things. And you've made me think actually about how I'm different now as a leader, which I don't really think about very much. We don't look back as leaders very often. We look forward. So that's been very interesting. No, I think we've covered some good ground and I actually feel even more energised than when I came on the call. So thank you, Digby. That's really cool.

Digby Scott (: 47:03

how good is that? And for someone who's got a sore throat, you've done very well. through it. Can I just ask you when you said, I've made you think about how you're different as a leader now, how do you reckon you are different? If you were to sum that up.

I probably feel more confident inside, which is really where it matters, you know, because we can fake the outside bit. And confident on the inside means being more vulnerable with colleagues as well about what's going well, not well in life, in work, in everything else. I wouldn't have been having that depth and quality of conversation 10, 20 years ago.

The metaphor might be it used to be champagne. Now it's red wine. It's someone asked me that the other day. How am I different? And I said, yeah, I reckon 10 years ago I was all champagne and now it's a still a red wine. And I hear the same in you. That's lovely. Where can people find you connect with you, James?

Right.

James McCulloch (: 47:55

Yeah, that's a good way of it.

James McCulloch (: 48:00

Look, I'm pretty prolific on LinkedIn, whether my colleagues like it or not. I always take a photo and post it and you make fun of my selfies as well, Digby. But I share a lot of stuff on LinkedIn that we're up to at Victim Support and hopefully share it very openly as well at the highest of the lows. we've been through quite a journey and we're still on it. So LinkedIn is the best and I always love to talk. So I would also say that it's really cool.

when leaders reach out that are at a different stage with this transformation journey and having those sort of cultural issues that we had at Victim Support in the past, I am always happy to talk and share everything that we've done. As I know our leadership team are as well, because why wouldn't we, right? We're all in this together and it's bloody lonely and hard when you're at the top in those situations. So yeah, yes, please always happy to talk. Coffee or a red wine or a champagne actually.

See you next time.

Digby Scott (: 48:54

Awesome. So generous. Such a rich conversation, my friend. So thank you so much for doing this with us. See you soon.

See you soon, Digby, thank you.

Digby Scott (: 49:09

Just reflecting on the chat with James, what do you think of that idea of just passing through? I really like that as a frame, how it gets me thinking about what's my contribution and that I don't have to do it all. Yet I have a responsibility to contribute to the book by writing my chapter or enabling a chapter to be written that I might be guiding.

for the time that I'm here. And there's something that I feel is very freeing about that. You know, I don't have to be the savior. I just have to be the contributor. Kind of goes with that idea of being banging on about for a bit around being a host rather than a hero. So to me, that's something that will sit with me for a while. It relates to a piece I wrote actually called...

We're all fixed term, which I'll put in the show notes, which is just found the same idea. You know, we're not permanent. We're fixed term. So how will we use our time? You also might like the episode I had with Sir Ashley Bloomfield, episode seven, where really similar sentiments compared to, James, really similar ideas around what it takes to lead for lasting impact and the human side of that engaging, encouraging.

showing belief, embedding in systems, in the culture, all of that stuff. So go there, check that out. Episode seven with Sir Ashley Bloomfield. If you like this episode, you will do well by getting a conversation going with it, I reckon. So share this episode with someone else and then go and have a coffee, have a chat about what it brought up for you. I'm finding that people are using these episodes and snippets from them in their team meetings as well. So that's an idea. Maybe just grab a soundbite from it.

and have a conversation with your team about what it brings out. I'm Digby Scott, this is Dig Deeper and until next time, go well. See you soon.