40. Creating Connection in a Disconnected World, and Space Between the Logs | Jenny Brown

Jenny Brown (: 00:09

It has always fascinated me being in places and spaces and observe people's behaviours, what they said and what they don't say, and what they do and what they don't do. If we pause as leaders a little bit and take in more what is actually really happening behind the words and behind the actions, we would be all the more richer in our leadership with people.

Digby Scott (: 00:46

Whatever the most powerful thing you could do as a leader isn't delivering results or driving change, but simply seeing and hearing the people around you.

Today I'm joined by Jenny Brown. Jenny grew up in apartheid South Africa, classified as a coloured person. And it's here she learned what it means to navigate between worlds. Not quite fully belonging anywhere, but developing this extraordinary ability to see and be in the spaces between. She's got this superpower to read what's really happening in a room, not just what's being said, but what's being felt, what's being avoided, and what needs to be addressed. She's also learned to call out what needs to be called

and doing so with a skillfulness that keeps people whole. She understands that leadership isn't really about having all the answers, it's about creating spaces for others to be truly seen and heard. If you've wondered how to create genuine belonging in your organisation, or how your own formative experiences might become your leadership superpower, this conversation I reckon will change how you think about what leadership really means.

I'm Digby Scott and this is Dig Deeper, a podcast where I have conversations with depth that will change the way you lead. Let's go.

Digby Scott (: 02:06

Hey Jenny, welcome to the show.

Thanks, Digby, and thank you for having me.

It's been a long time coming, this conversation. I remember a while back you said to me, my job is to see and hear other people. I'm so curious. What do you mean by that?

It has always fascinated me being in places and spaces and observe people's behaviours, what they said and what they don't say, and what they do and what they don't do. If we pause as leaders a little bit and take in more what is actually really happening behind the words and behind the actions, we would be all the more richer in our leadership with people.

So you've just like dropped this massive stone into a pond. There's big reverberations, big waves that come off your words there. What you're alluding to, I think, is it's not just about literally just seeing someone like line of sight, or it's not just about hearing their words. I think what you're saying is go well beyond that. Like go into the what are they not saying? What are they trying to say? Who are they?

Digby Scott (: 03:24

How do they want to be seen? Is that right? Is that kind of what you mean by that?

Yeah, and I think it's about presence, isn't it? It's shutting down some of that noise that is happening in the moment and be the observer of what is actually unfolding, of what is actually happening, who's saying what, who is not saying what. And there's actually such a lot that's happening. So I think sometimes as leaders, we are so tempted to jump in and get the next thing ready in our head without actually seeing what is presenting to us.

Yeah, so it's standing back and noticing more than being in the fray.

That's right. And you know, I can't help but think of Maya Angelou's quote talking about this. There's this quote that I'll never forget from her that says, I've learned that people will forget what you said. People will forget what you did. People will never forget how you made them feel.

It's a beautiful quote. feel like the drawing a line between seeing and hearing people and on the other side of that is being seen and heard. Why does this matter? Like in the context of work of leadership, what makes this such an important idea to you?

Jenny Brown (: 04:46

So, you know, there's a lot of data out there that speaks to this and quite recent ones as well. Like there was a work human 2023 study, a survey actually, where 30 % of the participants said they feel invisible. 27 % says they were ignored. That was just one survey. Then in January, 2025, Gallup, the employee engagement, it was the lowest scores in the last decade.

mpared data between December,: 2023

Wow.

Jenny Brown (: 05:46

53 % in 2024. If you just pause there for a minute and you go, what is all of that about? Look, we know the whole story about people are not engaged, present-eism, low productivity, people withdraw, all of that. I think what sometimes is invisible is the fight, flight and freeze responses that people are going through when they don't feel seen and they don't feel heard. They don't feel they belong.

And what often happens sometimes is the behaviour either gets addressed, you know, people are not performing or a she'll be all right approach applied. often none of those two things are actually the course. Behaviour is just, it's just the symptom. Yeah. But the course is actually not belonging like, like these survey studies is telling us. And so this really made me think about those are the moments I think when.

we should probably be less furious at the non-performance and more curious.

I love that language.

And so, you know, if we are less furious and more curious, what are the questions you reckon could be helpful that leaders could use in that context?

Digby Scott (: 07:08

I'm speaking from my own experience of when I came back to New Zealand to live 17, 18 years ago and I joined a fairly big consulting firm. I knew within two weeks I didn't belong. That's a pretty binary statement, but I just felt like it was an organ rejection. I was implanted in there, but it didn't really take, it wasn't because, necessarily because the work wasn't interesting. To be honest, it wasn't that interesting, but it wasn't the point.

The point was that I didn't feel like I was seen as a human. I felt like I was a widget of production that needed to have a certain percentage of time on my time sheet being billable hours. So what are the questions? Questions like what lights you up? What drives you? What's concerning you at the moment? And what makes you angry? Yeah.

Which she angry.

Digby Scott (: 08:05

Yeah, like what's it like coming from Australia to New Zealand? How's that feeling? That mustn't, you know, that transition must be hard. All of those questions I would feel seen because there's an empathy. People trying to understand my world. And I feel like that's a way of what you're trying to say. It's like, yeah, show me that you're trying to get me.

You know, I often think that people don't care if they are not cared for. And there's a reason for that. We know that we are neurobiologically wired to belong. It's a basic human need. It's a fundamental need. And that feeds so many things, well-being, know, motivation, productivity. And just think about if the conditions are set for that to be in place.

There will actually be more free time to spend on other things that leaders often go, I don't have time to do X, Y and Z. So it's almost like you get the basics right.

Yeah. And in some ways it's kind of like you're removing the noise. Yes. And in my case, as an employee, there was a lot of noise in my head about, if I don't belong here, where do I belong or how do I get to belong and what do I need to do? And all this noisy stuff that if I could just dial that down, I could get on with being productive and being a contributor because that need is no longer crying out to be met.

It's not filling up my brain or my heart. It's more, no, I'm good. Let's go.

Jenny Brown (: 09:40

You would also feel that you being seen actually build trust. And when trust is present, you will have a positive culture. You will have a productive culture. You know, I also reckon that being present for somebody else could also take us away from our devices a bit. What I mean, I've often seen leaders becoming so busy.

tell us more.

Jenny Brown (: 10:08

They run up and down with their phone. Where's the next meeting? Let me check this email in between. There could have been just a moment with a provided opportunity for connection that is lost because looking on the phone, on the staircase or in the hallway prevented a moment of connection with the person.

It's a really simple idea, isn't it? That it's just lift your head out rather than have it down. Yeah. And that's both literally, but also metaphorically. There's a lot in that. I'm wondering about where is this coming from this, you know, the Gallup survey results. That's astounding me. Cause I did know that for years, there's always about, you know, one third of employees are fully engaged and da da da. And now it's actually dropped. What's happening in the world that's driving that.

disconnection, that loneliness. What's happening do you think that's a catalyst for that?

Robert Putman has done a lot of work in that space about what's happening to societies, you know, since we got the first TV in the world. And Jonathan Hayat has just written an amazing book called The Anxious Generation, which is actually about devices. We are all in this current environment where devices literally are taking over. And I think that's another aspect that makes us lonelier.

And why belonging is so crucial for me because it's the antidote to loneliness.

Digby Scott (: 11:39

I think there's something more about the belonging and why it's so crucial for you. Tell us about where this comes from, your formative experiences, because it feels like ever since I've known you, this has been a central question for you. And it feels like it's so deep. And I reckon it would be good for people listening to understand what's driving Jenny Brown here.

So Jenny Brown was born in a small town in South Africa and that was in the middle of apartheid South Africa. so at the time, by default, I was classified as a coloured person like my parents of mixed race. And that placed severe restrictions on where I could be, live, work, go to school or even who I could love. Despite these experiences that taught me

all about othering people or that I'm othered. My family and my community provided me with a masterclass of the antidote, which is belonging. And so, you know, a mom that came to New Zealand 27 years ago with two young girls in tow, English wasn't my first language. And so it created for some interesting, hilarious misunderstandings, but it also opened some doors. I'm telling you that because I think

that experience, it gave me a unique lens on life and work. It gives me an intimate understanding of what it feels to truly belong deeply and to wistfully not belong, all at the same time.

Yeah, and let's dig a little deeper into that. So as coloured as a classification, one way of interpreting that is you're not white enough, but you're not black enough. And there's something about so you're in this in-between space that must feel confusing, discombobulating. Where do I fit?

Jenny Brown (: 13:40

Yes.

Jenny Brown (: 13:45

That's right.

Jenny Brown (: 13:52

And this duality actually shapes my perspectives and it fuels my appreciation for belonging. I have the ability to see things from different perspectives and have a level of empathy and compassion for different perspectives as well. And then there's also my set of values that is seated deeply in how I was shaped, where I could feel things like unfairness viscerally in my body.

How does that show up?

It shows up.

It's interesting, I call myself a super sensor for BS.

Ha

Jenny Brown (: 14:33

or just people that's not authentic, right? It's like, I've seen this before. How does it show up in my body? I actually can physically feel it in my stomach or my shoulders tighten. My mouth gets extremely dry if I have to speak and I feel I don't belong there. It's a deep, visceral experience. And I think that is probably partly why I'm just extremely purpose and values driven.

As I said, I feel it, but also I notice nuance. often see things or people that others overlooked in a particular context.

Can you give us an example of how that plays out?

very interesting story is I was actually at the event where you were, Digby, it's a while ago now, a few years ago now. And I didn't realise that I was doing it, but it's just so part of who I am. There was one person that didn't know anybody except one other person at this event. And I just noticed at one point that she was standing by herself and having a drink and she was just scanning the room. And I did a...

A line for what do you say? line or a B line? A B line for her. I mean, I don't really know. I've met her first time that night, but we had had a conversation and she really appreciated it. But somebody else actually noticed that I did that and said that, my goodness, I know you were about this, but it's just interesting how that occurred. That was actually in a just a social setting.

Digby Scott (: 16:10

It says to me that you're highly attuned to inclusivity or the lack of, which is, know, it's sort of like a sister word to belonging in a way, isn't it? It's there's this, okay, if I scan a room, who feels like they're maybe looking like they don't belong and perhaps they want to belong. And so what I make up about that, Jenny, is that you're playing a role to foster or catalyze inclusivity and belonging. Yeah. So there's a strong empathy.

That's

Jenny Brown (: 16:36

connection.

Digby Scott (: 16:40

coming through there for you.

Totally. And you know, one of the things that also helps me is because I've got this ability to see duality or polarities, I often keep my own ego in check as well. Or question if I am thinking about something or want to do something, is this not about my ego or is it not? And it makes me think you often talk about ego and echo in leadership, Digby.

Is there anything you want to add at this point or?

Thanks for the question. There's a million ways I want to go. Something that's coming up for me is where is it hard for you? Another way I put this is if you have such high empathy where you can see how you need to ensure others are included and belong, what about how you get your own needs for filling belonging for yourself? Because you can be in service of others.

and doing this all of the time. And in my experience, and certainly speaking personally, sometimes there's a martyrdom that can come with that, that I don't get my own voice heard or I don't ask for what I need from a belonging perspective. How do you manage that for yourself?

Jenny Brown (: 18:01

That's a continuous work of progress. And I've done a lot of work in that space. If you think about me coming from a background where there's certain jobs you couldn't do, there's certain places you can't go, you know, your life is limited. What then got instilled in us is a resourcefulness and a independence as opposed to interdependence. And I have been on the

journey of unlearning independence and become more interdependent. And I remember I said earlier, I have to check my ego. There's times when I'm like, I'd really like to, and, when the ego noise that coming up, I asked myself, is this you wanting to be independent again?

What does that mean behaviourally?

It's a thought process and then it will go into action. So for example, I would go, I wonder if blah, blah. No, they wouldn't want to hear from me. Blah, blah, blah, blah. I won't get that. You know, all of the noise in my head. And then at one point I'm just going, you are feeding in independence. I remember you want to go to interdependence. What is the worst thing that could possibly happen? They could say, no, they don't want to talk to you. And then you can talk to somebody else.

So you'll actually go and go and talk to someone or you'll speak up or whatever it might be.

Jenny Brown (: 19:28

I actually literally had this a week or so ago where in the middle of the night, I'm thinking of something and I'm like, I could just do this. No, just soldier on soldier on. You could actually do this in the following morning. I actually contacted a person and I was like, what's the worst could happen? She could not respond. Yeah. And she responded the following day and we interacted and it was so soulful. I think it's going to be a life's work for me. Yeah.

There you go.

Jenny Brown (: 19:57

ongoing working on myself, that I do belong in this world. I do belong where I am now and I can be more interdependent as opposed to independent.

What's coming up is I see this a lot with immigrants, you, me, both moving from our countries of origin into Aotearoa and New Zealand. And I reckon that making that choice to move to a completely new place where we don't know many people fosters an essential reliance on independence because like, well, I've got to make this work. And so often you see really successful

business people. That's not exclusive, of course, but I think there's a disproportionate amount of people who come from somewhere else because they have to make a go of it. They've got no other choice. So I think it's really strong, certainly in you. And what's the upside of interdependence then? So if we can let go of the, know, I've got this, I know how to make it on my own sort of story. What happens when we get to interdependence?

I think that's where connection and belonging and seeing and hearing people play out. Working with the noise in my head, working past the noise in my head, contacting this person, I've got a different level of connection with that person that I interacted with. And who knows where that might go. It's a stepping stone. I, yeah, I think sometimes there's also the whole, where you come from could be a

while you went overseas, you need to figure it out and you want to still show that, but in this context, that's just not gonna work. And also, I'm just also relentlessly curious about human behaviour. And I mean, for me, what's front of mind right now that I'm still mulling over and pondering and stuff is the recent interaction in the White House between the presidents of South Africa and the United States.

Digby Scott (: 21:47

Yeah.

Jenny Brown (: 22:03

There's just so much noise out there, but I actually, when I heard about it, I went and looked up some YouTube videos and stuff. And so that happened last month.

we're recording this in June: 2025

So that happened in May, that visit. And for me, understanding the context that the South African president is coming from as a black guy who was born in the middle of apartheid, he has provided the world, I reckon, a masterclass, not only in statement jar, but in body language.

communication, negotiation diplomacy, sticking to the facts, not being defensive despite the other party doing everything in their power to make you feel not seen and heard.

What did you see specifically? What was the behaviour that said that statesmanship right there?

Jenny Brown (: 23:06

It was the way in which he held himself. So when they showed a clip on a screen, for example, he didn't not look at the screen. He actually turned his entire body and he looked at what the president Trump wants to show him. You know, he was engaged. He looked president Trump in the eye. He didn't smoke. You know, often when we are in difference of opinions, then there's different body language and stuff that come out. He didn't.

try to talk over Trump. Almost every time in this specific video I watch, I see something different. He was also not defensive at one point, he actually said, that's an interesting view from you, I'm actually gonna go and look into that. It doesn't matter whether you don't agree with what the other person is saying or not, but that is still showing his humanity towards President Trump, despite the fact that he may not agree with the fact.

Huh?

Jenny Brown (: 24:05

that there is a white genocide out of South Africa.

That's really interesting. You know, and the, there's this lovely word, monarchy Tanga in Tereo Maori, you know, this, I'm going to uphold this person's mana and I'm going to stay curious and open and I'm going to, I'm not necessarily take the high road. It's more, just allow the conversations to stay open rather than closed. And there's a, a lack of defensiveness that I think you noticed there.

by the sounds of it. What does it take for anyone to be able to do that well? know, what's the first, if you're threatened or, you know, there's some sort of external provocation, what's the first step for us?

I think we need to learn to keep our body language in check. I think we need to continue to breathe and also notice what is happening in our body. Not all circumstances, of course, the same, but there is moments I think when we have to know ourselves so well that we go, I actually can't stay here now anymore. It's time that I step away and perhaps come back again.

Hmm.

Jenny Brown (: 25:21

But actually check in with yourself. Where are you at in this conversation? But also preparedness, you know, it's like when I actually go and dig a little bit more, the preparation that South Africa has put in going to the White House has been extraordinary. They had with them the richest man in South Africa, for example, who was a white guy. Trump asked if they could bring some of the golf players with and Soto Ramaphosa went, yeah, sure.

And so he took them and these golf players were saying in their view, there is no white genocide. We are white guys. And so it's centering the truth and centering humanity. think for me is the big things that came out of that conversation. you know, also remembering I'm not underestimating Cyril Ramaphosa. Cyril Ramaphosa has a man that was shaped for big things in that country. And he, he was one of the people that led the negotiations that led to a democratic South Africa. So.

Actually, he was to be the president after Nelson Mandela. it was a long road for him to get there, but he is extraordinarily skilled at negotiations.

There's also something in what you're saying about you looping back to the calling the BS. It's something that you are increasingly better at and perhaps more active around. And what it sounds like he didn't do in that interaction was call out BS. was more of a, you know, what is in martial arts where it's just like roll with the resistance instead of pushing back against it.

You kind of roll over with it and that's the powerful move. And there's something about he didn't call out the BS yet. I want to bring it back to calling out BS, right? Because you've said, yeah, this is something that you're, you're more on. You can sense it and you call it. What's allowed you to do that? Because I think when I first met you, that wasn't something I'd say I'd associate with you as a strong quality and it's clearly grown.

Digby Scott (: 27:29

What's going on there for you?

I think that one of the things is just age.

Give less fucks, I think they say.

Well, there's also some, you know, I did say earlier I'm purpose and values driven and there is something very deep inside of me about fairness. Fairness is my number one value and when that is triggered, I would work very hard on how do I best raise this bullshit.

Yeah.

Jenny Brown (: 28:05

It's an ongoing piece of work because English isn't the second language as I said, and if I had to say it in my first language, it would be much harsher than it would be in English.

What would you say? What would it be in Afrikaans? How would you say it?

There's one of my previous staff that used to say, apparently, I used to murmur under my breath something and one day one of them asked me what it was and I told them and it became like a slogan in the team. I apparently murmured, it was hot full.

That sounds scary.

Can you

Jenny Brown (: 28:44

Basically, I had a guts full, but you can hear that it's more expressive.

Absolutely.

Yeah, but what I also worked on is my ability to call out the BS, but in a way that doesn't leave all the relationships down in the river and out to sea.

think this is the core work, isn't it? That we want to keep someone intact and keep a relationship intact, yet we don't want to dance around.

Yes. And that comes from, gosh, I've done a lot of work on how to have difficult conversations with people, particularly in workplaces, even in my personal life as well. And it's an ongoing craft. It's not something that you can ever say you've got it nailed because you will always deal with another person with different personalities and stuff. And I've had some of my deepest and most profound friendships.

Jenny Brown (: 29:53

has actually come from people that I had a disagreement with.

tell us about how that unfolds. So you have a disagreement. Yeah. You call it out. You have a hard conversation. And what happens?

It often doesn't happen in the moment.

you don't become besties.

You don't become besties in the moment, but it's something that happened over time. In the moment, you know, a difficult conversation is always hard and it doesn't matter if you're the one instigating it and if you're the one on the other hand, it's a hard thing to navigate.

Digby Scott (: 30:23

I think that's important to own is that people are so how do I deal with a difficult conversation? And I'll often say, well, number one, just expect it's going to be hard. And there's something quite almost liberating about that.

Absolutely.

Jenny Brown (: 30:39

And if you genuinely go in with this model, Fierce Conversation, Susan Scott, lovely book. Susan Scott's model is just the most amazing in terms of how you prepare, how you enter the conversation, how you interact in the conversation, and what is your call for action.

Lovely book. Yeah.

Digby Scott (: 31:05

From memory, there's this lovely part of the book, is here's the first 60 seconds and it's structure that says really the crucial part of that conversation is what you say in the first 60 seconds. Do you remember some of the steps? maybe we can do it together.

Yeah, it's sort of what I just said. It's the preparation. That's the 60 seconds. Are you prepared for it? Because when you introduce the conversation, you're not allowed to speak more than 60 seconds. So you have to be very crisp. What, what it is. And you have to say, this is what I saw. This is what it made me feel. this is how it's not aligned to whatever, whatever. However, I have a role to play in this. Yeah. And so I may not have done A, B and C.

I think that's really key.

That's very key. And then the other part, then you say, but you know, you're an important stakeholder for me. And I'm really curious to hear what has happened for you. Because what I would like to see is the success in the project or the, you know, our relationship or whatever. And then you're open with questions and then you have the interaction and then you work through it. Questions and answers, they open up, ask open-ended questions. And then you get to a.

call for action basically. Okay, so this is what we're going to do going forward.

Digby Scott (: 32:22

That's great. know, so how I think about that is that often we say it's what do I have to tell the other person? Right. And, you know, what do they need to hear from me and all of this? But I think there's a nuance that is about actually, this is about us. It's not just about you. I may be playing a part in this dance as well. And so that's a lovely framing. This is about us. And the other part is.

that it's not just a broadcast, it's an invitation for a conversation, right? Which is the question. I'm wondering what's going on for you. What's your take on this? And generally coming from a place of curiosity rather than judgment, I think makes a challenging conversation not necessarily easier, but certainly perhaps get to a better outcome faster.

Talking about furious to curious. So if you go through preparing for that 60 seconds, I have actually felt that physiologically, it calmed me down. Because I was becoming more rational and clearer in terms of what I need to say and let go of my amygdala that was like, you know, it actually calmed me down.

Mmm.

Digby Scott (: 33:44

Yeah. What's the value in saying it out loud, rehearsing it beforehand? Do you do that?

Yeah, I do. I do. I would actually type it out, rehearse and time it.

Yeah, and what does that do? I'm assuming the same thing.

Same thing. It's part of actually getting me in the zone because you don't want to go into those conversations with your amygdala doing its own thing.

I like that. The amygdala doing its own thing and it's like, I am riding this horse. No, no, no, no. Yeah.

Jenny Brown (: 34:18

So, you know, if I think about it, if you, may not need even need to go to that, if you create conditions for belonging, yeah. And so how could we do that? There's an opportunity for us all ask ourselves and do a bit of an audit for ourselves and see what comes up. What is the barriers to noticing your people?

Yeah. And besides looking down at your phone, what are the other barriers? mean, to me, it feels like a lot of it is about I'm prioritizing task over relationship. So my primary job, perhaps if I'm a leader, the story I'm telling myself is to get stuff done. Right. And people are either an obstacle or an enabler for that. Yes. But they're not necessarily, you know, just there in their own right.

That's right.

Digby Scott (: 35:09

I'm struggling with my language, there's something about that to me, which is a big thing. So I know the point of being here is to get shit done.

Yes. And you know, if I think about some of the language, if you speak to people, let's say you bump into them in Lambden Key, right? Which is the main thorough way in Wellington city. hi, how are you doing? mate, I'm in back to backs. It's like, you know, look at me, I'm so busy. And I'm like, you just missed the opportunity to actually see that person. Yeah. In Lambden Key, literally.

Yeah, so the how are you response is activity based. It's busyness based as opposed to human connection based. Yeah. It's almost like a game of how busy can you be?

That's right.

Jenny Brown (: 35:57

And so if you've done that little kind of a, I'll call it just the self audit of, what is the barriers? What is in my way? Is it my back to backs? Is it?

might be fear. There could be fear of, like, if I open up to this person, then I might show some of my own vulnerabilities, you know, and I might be discovered as an imposter or whatever it might be, right? Totally. Or they're just weird and I don't know how I'm going to deal with this person because they're really not like me. You know, there's maybe lots of fear-based drivers for not making a human connection.

Yeah, could be fear.

Jenny Brown (: 36:30

Exactly. But just what a beautiful source of information that could be if you actually do that little audit.

I love that. What would you call it? A fear or a barrier?

barrier audit, a connection or a belonging barrier audit. And then once you have that is also ask yourself the question, how can I elevate hearing and seeing my people during existing interactions? So I'm thinking, you know, you have catch-ups instead of focusing more on what people are doing, perhaps we focus on how they are doing. Which is exactly what you just talked about, the doing, right?

Yeah.

Jenny Brown (: 37:09

You know, I often think about, used to, when the weather is great in Wellington, I would go for walking meetings as a catch up with a staff member. And often we would actually talk about environmental stuff or what we're seeing and how they're feeling. And often the catch up would be around, I would sometimes only ask two questions. One would be, what's the most important thing we should talk about today?

And how is things going for you or what do you need from me? And that's it.

Yeah. Beautiful set of questions. Yeah. What's the most important thing? Sometimes I ask what's the most interesting thing that you'd like to talk about? That kind of is an invitation to dig deeper. What were the other questions?

That's right, that's great too.

Jenny Brown (: 37:56

I mean, you can ask two or three. It's the most important and basically how are they going with what they're doing and what do they need from me? Often the how and the what that's captured in the most important thing anyway. Yeah. And then the other thing, other question I will have for leaders is how can you optimize the moments in between activities?

Yeah, it's enough.

Jenny Brown (: 38:25

for belonging. So it really reminds me of the poem Fire by Judy Brown. And I know you love this poem, Dick B, particularly around what makes a fire burn. the space between the logs.

Yeah. Let me find it because I reckon it's worth reading. One second. Yeah.

This hasn't taken me long, it's right on my bookshelf. Judy Brown's fire.

Yeah, and so that makes me think about, you know, between activities, between meetings. When you come back from the bathroom, on the moment from walking from your car, those are the moments in between that I'm talking about.

So looking for those, sensing those, stepping into those as an opportunity for connection. Something about it doesn't have to be big either. It's just, I see you. Yeah, I you. What is it in? Is it Swahili?

Jenny Brown (: 39:21

Buntu is a word and it comes from actually the Zulu language. Yeah. And that means I am because you are. There's a few different ways that is interpreted. I interpreted as my existence as meaning through your existence.

Lulu.

Digby Scott (: 39:41

That's your independence right there. Yeah. Yeah.

I am because you are.

I do want to come to reading this poem. We may we do this right at the end. And I have a question. If we could see ourselves as leaders, our primary job is to see and hear other people. Yeah. What have we shifted that to be our primary role? What would happen, do you think, in organisations, in society and communities?

While we would tip the scale of the surveys.

Number two.

Digby Scott (: 40:16

Gallup would be happy.

would be happy, know, Professor Haar and so on. But also, you know, there's a lot of talk in New Zealand at the moment around productivity. It will significantly up our productivity. And can I just say, also wider than that, if I just zoom out for a little bit in terms of belonging at the moment, me and you have talked about it within the context of leaders, perhaps organisationally and so on. But what if we zoom out a little bit?

Yeah.

Jenny Brown (: 40:47

What could the benefits of belonging have for New Zealand as a nation? I reckon it will have better and equitable social health, education, criminal justice and economic outcomes, just to name a few. So if we pause for a moment and we just take health, for example, right? It's one of our biggest challenges in New Zealand, right? And one of the most amazing books that I've read in recent years is the book

Go.

Jenny Brown (: 41:17

together by Dr. Vivek Murthy, who was the physician and the former US Surgeon General. think it was in the Obama administration. And his book is an exceptional call to action, urging us all to recognize the profound impact of loneliness on our health and happiness and to actively cultivate a deeper, more meaningful human connection in our lives and our communities. So I reckon

It will help us live longer and better lives and relieve the pressure of the health system, which will have economic impacts. And so it will have a positive spiral. So, you know, if we could look as a micro organisations, but if you actually zoom out. If every person in New Zealand have a focus on belonging and it becomes a central theme of how we live and work. Wow.

Wow.

You talked earlier, Digby, about Whakapapa. And actually, I've got her here. Eastwood, his book, Belonging, he writes that Whakapapa is a Māori idea which embodies our universal need to belong. It represents a powerful spiritual belief that each of us is part of an unbroken chain of people who share sacred identity and culture. So how can we give meaning to that idea?

Huh?

Digby Scott (: 42:48

There's something about, there's not just belonging to the people in the space and time around us, but there's belonging to a longer storyline. Yes. The fuckpapa, the shoulders of the giants you stand on. Yeah. And the idea that you belong to that story is something that I think many of us have lost. And also we're contributing to a story that we will belong to long after we've gone. I wrote a piece a while back called, what's your bit?

And it's this idea of what's your contribution to the longer storyline that you're picking up from where your ancestors left off, but you're also leaving for your descendants to pick up from you. And there's something about to me that sense of belonging, which we haven't really touched on here in detail, but there's something about to me that feels really grounded and you could ground that in the story of your organisation, of your team. You know, the people have come before you, what they did and how we're evolving their work.

You know, that's very, very powerful as a way of, I think, helping you settle into, here's how I can contribute. Yeah. And the interdependence between the past and the future and the present.

I'm thinking also about, you know, just teams, how they work together. What is the story that came before us? What is the legacy we want to leave behind? And therefore, how do we need to work together and show up for each other? So I often think that if, every New Zealander can do one thing every day to make someone feel seen or heard. What a ripple effects that would have.

Yeah.

Digby Scott (: 44:33

And that's an easy thing, isn't it? Step out your front gate, your front door, who's the first person you see, make eye contact, give them a nod and carry on your way.

Yeah. And look, I reckon we have it in us.

And I still think New Zealand is one of the most friendliest countries in the world. But I also think we have succumbed to the devices and wanting to be more within ourselves. And I think it is time that we do more of a village. you know, I recently travelled to Africa and the contrast between the collective community spirit there

Compared to here, is a difference.

massively, I imagine.

Jenny Brown (: 45:24

A very simple story to demonstrate that fact is that I haven't been back there for nine years and unannounced, I could just go and knock on the doors of two elderly friends of my mother. And they opened the door and put on the kettle.

Yeah. And we just picked up where we left off. That's what I'm talking about. That's right. think we've, we've made it too complicated to actually see and hear each other unnecessarily. And we need to make it easier and more in the community spirit. I think I mentioned that to you a few weeks ago, I think you wrote something about, I can't remember. Was it about the microwave? it just reminded me about.

There you go. Belonging over time.

Jenny Brown (: 46:17

asking for help and the small community that I come from and how asking for help within that community was okay. But it's outside of that community that we were taught you have to be independent, you have to forge your own way, you have to be resourceful because the world outside there is not made for a brown skinned girl like you.

Yeah. And you're transcending that now. It's such a beautiful story. So not just necessary give someone a nod, but perhaps either ask for help or ask, how can I help? You know, and make the offer. It's awesome. I want to bring us back to that poem. I thought perhaps we could finish if I read the poem and you tell me what it means to you. Yeah.

As I read it. So folks, the poem I'm about to read is called Fire by a lady called Judy Brown out of a book called A Leader's Guide to Reflective Practice, which I have dog eared and got Post-it notes hanging out of. And it's one of my most referenced books in my leadership development work and it's stories and models and tools and poems. So here's a poem. This is my favorite one. Fire.

What makes a fire burn is space between the logs. A breathing space, too much of a good thing, too many logs packed in too tight can douse the flames almost as surely as a pail of water can. So building fires requires attention to the spaces in between as much as to the wood. When we're able to open spaces in the same way, we've learned to pile on the logs, then we can come to see how it's the fuel

and the absence of the fuel together that makes the fire possible. We only need to layer log lightly from time to time. A fire grows simply because the space is there, with openings in which the flame that knows just how it wants to burn can find its way. Wow. What does that mean to you, that poem G?

Jenny Brown (: 48:27

There were so many things that came up for me when you were reading that. One was the word breathing. And how many times we are in this space where our bodies react, you know, our body physiologically because something is happening and we just need to get our breath back. Regroup ourselves and go again. I mean, we touched on the difficult conversations and so on.

but also the word attention. And I'm thinking about belonging and if you pay attention and how can we be better at actually affirming our people? How can we do that through our language? Saying, I saw you dot dot dot. You know, I noticed that it showed people that you have paid attention. And also how

through that poem, I could also see how you can open the space for connection if you don't pack the logs in so tightly. So if you go from meeting to meeting to meeting, the logs are packed too tightly. Space them out so that you can have more breathing space and create opportunities for connection. The fire space is there. I will find it's something, it's at the end. What is the last?

Beautiful.

Digby Scott (: 49:51

simply because the space is there with openings in which the flame that knows just how wants to burn can find its way.

can find its way. I love that. And I connected that with how can we ask better questions to find the way through connection and centering that in leadership. And you know, it just makes me think sometimes the default is, Digby, how are you? And I'm thinking, is there a better question we could ask?

Yeah.

What do you think, Digby? What could be a better question to ask when you want to build connection as opposed to how are you?

What's lighting you up these days? I like to ask. Or if you want to be cheeky, know, if your mood could be described as the weather, what weather would you be bringing right now?

Jenny Brown (: 50:45

Oh, I love that. I love that. And you know, I sometimes I think people also wonder what is, what is in it for them. If they ask these questions, the truth is that if, if you see somebody else, there's actually benefits for both parties. Because what is happening is oxytocin get released and

We know that that builds trust in relationships and reduce stress and stuff. But here's the bonus. If you are the one that's making the effort to actually see or hear someone else, you also get serotonin. And that helps with regulating your mood. I mean, we've all been in this space, to be aware. We feel a little bit flat, yeah? We had a bit of a bad hair day, whatever that case may be, and somebody sees or hear you.

How does that feel?

So go first, right? What's coming to mind with there is, say you're leading a meeting, get there 30 seconds before everyone else, stand by the door or be the first on the call. And as they come in, hey, welcome. Good to see you. What's your weather mood right now?

Yes.

Jenny Brown (: 52:02

That's right. That's right. But even, even the opposite. Also think about a moment when you felt flat or low and totally unexpectedly somebody else saw or heard you. What did that feel like? It's magic.

It's magic. That's the word. Doesn't have to be magic though. We can all learn how to do it.

Totally, but I guess the magic I associate with the emotion of just exhilarated you feel. Yeah.

Yes. Because I've felt seen. as we bring this conversation to a close, I want to ask you over the last hour or so we've been talking, what's something that you've learned or been reminded of?

been reminded how beautiful that poem is. I really have been reminded and I've also been reminded that until the day I die, I'll probably work on interdependence and that's okay. What do they say? The first step to learning something is being aware of it. And so that's something that I'm acutely aware of. I learned that more than ever.

Digby Scott (: 53:01

Hmm.

Digby Scott (: 53:09

Yes.

Jenny Brown (: 53:18

Belonging needs to be centered in how we live and how we work as a human race, because that could lead to our undoing if we fail to do that.

Beautiful. Powerful notes to end on. Jenny, how can people find you, connect with you if they want to carry on a conversation with you?

I'm Jenny Brown, coach or HR leader in LinkedIn. You can certainly find me there and I promise I will respond.

Awesome. And we'll put your link to LinkedIn in the show notes. Jenny, thank you so much as ever. Warm, deep, resonant, mind blowing, wonderful conversation. Thank you so much.

It's a privilege to be.

Digby Scott (: 54:14

a quick reflection after that wonderful conversation with Jenny Brown. Love some of those soundbites, less furious, more curious, and people don't care if they're not cared for. Just great things to remember, those little ideas that we can, if we pay attention a little bit more to the person or people in front of us.

and see them as people who have got needs, have got concerns, have got dreams, or remember that, and we pay attention to that. And as the fire poem says, know, create the space between the logs for the fire to find its way. I think that's an incredible way of thinking about being a leader. So lovely reminder for me there, plenty to digest. Wonder what you're taking from this?

wondering what it's got you thinking and maybe what you might want to go and do. Maybe it's slowing down just that little bit more and noticing the moment between. I'd love it if you share this episode with someone if you found it inspiring and get a conversation going. Also check out all the resources. We mentioned four or five books, a blog or two. I'll put them all in the show notes for you to check out as well. And if you like this, you will likely like my weekly blog post that I share, which is called Dig Deeper as well.

Let's jump on digbyscott.com forward slash subscribe and you'll get the very next one. Just a very quick shout out to, to a couple of the team behind the scenes that I haven't actually acknowledged who have produced most of these episodes up until now. There's Gabby White, who's my practice manager who coordinates herds of cats and ensures guests show up on time in the right place and makes everything happen. And Kane Power, who is my podcast production expert who makes it sound good.

every time. So thank you team for being part of this journey with me. I'm Digby Scott, this is Dig Deeper and next time go well.