38. Questioning Everything, Living Intentionally, and Why Singing in Meetings Changes Everything | Jordan Harcourt-Hughes

Jordan Harcourt-Hughes (: 00:09

When we are moving out of a trust environment, it creates all kinds of dissonance and all kinds of distractions. And sometimes we create these distractions because we don't know how to deal with the dissonance, with the disconnect. And so we can't move forward. Creating that trusting environment is about trusting one another and being able to show up fully congruent and challenge each other if we're not. Because we can still have arguments and challenge each other when we are fully congruent, but it's a better conversation. It's more authentic, it's more productive, and I think you can get to...

a plan of action more efficiently and have everyone on the same page and aligned and move forward from there.

Digby Scott (: 00:53

What if words aren't enough to truly connect with others?

And what if there's an entire dimension of communication that we're missing? One that could transform how we lead, how we listen, and how we create trust in our teams. Today I'm joined by Jordan Harcourt Hughes, who's a communication specialist, as well as an abstract painter and writer. Jordan's journey began with what she calls her early midlife crisis at 19, a pivotal moment when she realised that traditional language wasn't the complete picture for human connection. And together we explore this

fascinating concept of vibrational language, how our bodies communicate beyond words and why singing in Monday morning meetings might be more revolutionary than you think. And what happens when we learn to listen not just with our ears, but with our entire being? Whether you're leading strategy sessions that feel stuck or simply curious about creating a deeper connection in your work, this conversation I think will change how you think about the spaces between what we say

and what we truly communicate. Hi, I'm Digby Scott, and this is Dig Deeper, a podcast where I have conversations with depth that will change the way you lead. Let's get into it.

Digby Scott (: 02:14

Hey Jordan, welcome to the show.

Hey, DB, thank you for having me. It's lovely to get the chance to chat with you.

It is. Where are you at the moment? Tell us where's home at the moment.

Home at the moment is on the central coast of New South Wales. So I feel incredibly lucky to be about five minutes away from the most beautiful beaches. So five minutes away from Shelley Beach and Terrigal and Wambrol. And I tell you what, just it's the most beautiful part of the world. I feel very connected and I feel very much alive. It's not where I always live. So I come and go between here and Aotearoa New Zealand. So I'll be heading back to New Zealand in about three weeks.

where I also live in a beautiful place very close to the ocean. So the ocean's a big part of my life and it's always lovely to be near water.

Digby Scott (: 02:57

We have a lot in common, don't we? This connection with nature, particularly the coastal stuff. I contend that perhaps the most beautiful beaches are Western Australia, but I would say that because that's where I'm from. Anyway, there's more than one. You reached out to me and there was this, I'm coming back to New Zealand, like what you're about, let's have a chat. And we don't really know each other that well. Yet I think there's a lot we can dig into. I'm really looking forward to this conversation. Me too. Because I don't know you so well.

Absolutely.

Digby Scott (: 03:26

Many of the listeners won't know you. Let's go back a little bit to discover or share a little bit about who you are and what shaped you. Tell us about what happened when you were 19.

Yes. And you know this because I mentioned to you that I'd been reading your book, The Changemaker's Book, and I had read that you'd had a midlife crisis at the age of 30. And I told you I can beat that. I had mine at 19.

Can I just check? I'm nearly 60. So do I have three years left? You must be less than 38. Let's just call it a pivotal moment in our lives rather than a midlife crisis.

a pivotal moment is fantastic and it really was. So I had always wanted to be a writer from the earliest time that I can remember. You know, I'd been journaling and writing all through my childhood. So at the age of 17, I finished high school and I went to study journalism because it was a natural thing to think, well, writing is a career, journalism sounds good, I'll do it. I went to university to study and after two years, I just realised that I hated it. And not only did I hate the world of communications in a journalistic sense, I was

coming to the conclusion that words were just not enough. They weren't the things that could really allow us to be our best selves or communicate in the best way possible. And in fact, I felt so dismayed and so disappointed and bereft. And it really felt that I'd come to this time in my life at a very early age where I was losing everything. Everything that I had been kind of leading to was just dissolving all around me. So if words couldn't be the thing that I thought they were.

Jordan Harcourt-Hughes (: 05:03

what was the good of anything? So I really felt that words could be misused and abused. know, people could use them in a manipulative way. You know, we can use them to lie or misrepresent things. And I just thought, that's nuts. How are we using words and language as the best case scenario to communicate and connect and share knowledge when they can be so misdirected? I had this huge sense of coming to a place of not knowing. I didn't know what to do next. just

I went through a grieving stage actually at the age of 19. And this is why I can call it an early midlife crisis. It's everything I thought I knew just I had to release and I grieved for it and then I just didn't know what to do. So it was really the start of my path and it was the start of me having to take ownership. Well, if this isn't it, if this isn't the best way that we can connect and commune and share information and experience life, what is it? What is the next step after this if words aren't enough?

There's so much to go into here. Can I ask you about the experience of the crisis and how you navigated that? Because 19 is an age where we're generally still taking a lot of cues from our social environment, you know, what our friends are doing and what we say we should be doing because of what society says. And you'd been on this path and then there was this sort of big old speed bump. Right. So hang on, hang on. I've got to stop and reconsider this. And this is

This is an age where perhaps most people don't do that. They'll sort of follow the line of less resistance and get the degree and get the first job. And it's all about that stuff. But you didn't do that. What was that like to go against the grain?

is very, very tough. Firstly, it was very lonely. You know, there's not a lot of people to talk to about this kind of thing because it's kind of a little bit big picture, esoteric, philosophical, and a lot of people just aren't in the space where they're ready to have those kind of conversations. And no one really understood it. No one got it. You know, I felt very firm about the fact that this was the time where I had to take responsibility for what I was experiencing. And that meant I had to step away from the degree that my parents were paying for. They were devastated. They didn't understand. Well, you know, they'll say,

Jordan Harcourt-Hughes (: 07:13

just go and finish it. You know, it won't hurt you to stick around for another year. But I felt as a statement of living intentionally, I couldn't go through with it. I had to leave that place because I knew it wasn't enough. And I would be doing a disservice to myself and the life that I was here to lead if I was to continue and pretend that that was okay. I would be in alliance with something that I didn't agree with and didn't sit well with me.

a strong values connection that I thought, where did that come from? Like, you know, what was it do you think that helped you have that conviction to stay true to your values? Because again, I'm trying to remember when I was 19, I think I was very much a, yeah, this isn't exactly what I should be doing, but it's whatever else is doing. So I'll do it. And there was probably a disconnect for me from a deeper conviction, probably because I just wasn't aware of it. What were your early

shaping forces that helped you know that this was the path or to give you the strength to stay true. I'm wondering where that comes from because it's rare, I think, at this age.

think it's rare, but I think the devastation and annihilation was total. There were a number of things going on in my life. So I'd been, I was a very good girl, you know, all the way through my teens, I didn't get it up too much. You know, I was kind of had an Anglican upbringing, very moderate upbringing, but that was still the landscape that I existed in. And at the same time I lost my faith in words, I also lost my faith in faith and anything that I thought I knew. And so it was, it was a complete sense of losing everything. And I don't think you can

treat that lightly. When that happens to you, it is visceral, it is through every part of your body. And it was such an intense experience that I couldn't shrug it off. I couldn't say, this doesn't mean very much. I'm just going to go and live my life and pretend. I just, didn't have that choice. I had to look at full frontal and deal with it because otherwise it just would have consumed me and overwhelmed me. And it does sound strange. It's a vague idea at best, you know, and there wasn't much to be done about it to begin with, but it was a very strong experience. And it's the pivotal point that I always

Jordan Harcourt-Hughes (: 09:15

remember as being the start of the journey for me. And I'm very grateful to have it.

Yeah, it's sort of like great to have that realization at 19 rather than say 59 or whatever. Not that it's necessarily bad to have it at 59 either, but there's something about the long run where you have in life potentially that you can really make the most of. Who helped you through that journey? You know, when you were 19, 20, who around you helped you, if anyone, helped you stay true?

I I knew at the time that stepping out on this journey meant that I had to become self-reliant. So I had to learn how to be with myself on the journey. And that was a good learning, it was one that took me a good while. So when I walked out of that degree, I moved to Scotland and I studied metalwork for a year and I just learned to live with myself. So I studied, I read, I lived alone. I had an occasional job here and there, but it really, was a way to be with myself.

trust that I could be present on the journey, even if there was no one else to be with me on that journey, I would do it. And it felt like an adventure. It was lonely and it was tough, but I felt that it was the right thing to do it because I thought if I can be with myself, then it doesn't matter the rest of my life. If I have people or if I don't have people, it'll be okay. I'll be there and I can do it. learning that at a young age made me feel resilient. It made me feel that, you know, I can do this.

I love that. You know, it reminds me of, I think it was George Orwell who wrote a book about leaving a very comfortable life in London to become a pauper in Paris, know, a hundred odd years ago. And it was a giant experiment. What's it like for me to live in a completely different world? Can I do this? And what's the experience like? And it goes back to the stoic philosophy, you know, discover that we actually don't need that much. And if we lose everything, actually we do have the capacity and the resourcefulness to

Digby Scott (: 11:08

navigate life and to build it up again. And it reminds me of a time, actually really interesting. I was a little bit older. I would have been about 25. I qualified as a chartered accountant. So I'd done all that, but I knew I didn't want to be a chartered accountant. I'd gone travelling and done all these interesting things, worked in a ski resort in Banff in Canada and done busking. And it was sort of a moving away from that world of suits and ties and numbers.

And it culminated in me deciding to work on a salmon fishing boat on the West Coast of Canada for a whole season. And it was sort of a, if I can do this, I can do anything. It was almost like, what's the farthest away thing from chartered accounting that I can think of? What's salmon fishing in Canada? And it was the hardest thing I've ever done. And yet I suspect it's a similar lesson that you got, which is, look, I can handle this. And.

I know how to handle the unknown and different and I've got skills that didn't even realize I had, you know, metalwork, man, that's a long way from what you were studying, right?

Yeah. Can I tell you my Paris experience? Since you started on the Paris train. So when I was over in the UK, when I was studying metalwork, I finished up my studies, I spent a month in Bath and then I decided what is the thing that I can do that will be most outside of anything normal. And I actually bought a saxophone and I decided to learn how to play the saxophone. And I have had that saxophone for about a week and I thought I'm going to go to Paris. I'm going to go and busk in Paris.

Cool.

Jordan Harcourt-Hughes (: 12:43

And I took the ferry and I just decided to get out my saxophone on the ferry on the deck and try and play it. And of course I didn't know how to play a saxophone. I had no idea. The poor people inside the ferry were just looking at me thinking, what is that girl doing? And I was like, no, what's the worst that can happen? And, know, so I just mucked around with my saxophone and created some outrageous noises and then went to Paris and then bussed on the Seine River in the very same way and found a group of buskers and got a doc.

by them for the night. was a lovely old experience and I had no idea how to play the saxophone. It was just an adventure. But it was another one of those adventures where you just, what's the worst that can happen? No, here I am. May as well do it.

What's the lesson that you carry forward from that time?

I think just independence really. I wanted to live intentionally. I knew that I had to carve my own path and I didn't know what that was going to look like, but I knew I wanted to be with the journey, make the most of it, know, make the most of the hours and the time that we've got here on the planet and figure out why. And I wanted to experience everything and live the life in a way that I thought was meaningful.

That's awesome. It's inspiring. And you continue to do that. It's interesting your career path led you into the sort of more corporate environment around the doing the comms work, given that you've had these early experiences of, know, free spirited and doing metal work and playing a sax in Paris. And how was that going into the world where perhaps you could say there's more constraints?

Jordan Harcourt-Hughes (: 14:18

absolutely. well, funnily enough, I had this early life crisis where I discarded words completely. I fully discarded this idea of ever becoming a writer. I went to Scotland, I studied metalwork, and then I came back to Sydney and I went and studied fine arts. And I actually continued with the sculptural metalwork. So I've got a degree in visual arts where I, you know, it's a fine arts degree where I actually spent three years in a sculpture studio creating these big installations and had a beautiful time.

I started looking at language and art and sound, and that's where I really started to dig deep into the ideas behind language and sound and sculpture. But then when I left, when I graduated with my degree, I realised, of course, you know, it's really expensive to set up a metalworking studio and you need a lot of space. In Sydney, that's not going to happen. So I started painting. And it was actually through the painting process that I started to feel confident in returning to writing. It was the ability to tap into the intuitive and the creative that freed me up to think, there's a different way to write.

It may not be a logical process. It's far more intuitive and abstract. So my writing is kind of informed by my abstract art. But that's how I returned to writing. And then a few years later, I was after having spent all those years studying and travelling around, actually started in graphic design. I became a graphic designer and then a graphic design team leader. I then moved into the content space and became a content marketer and then moved in content and communications management and leadership. I've always loved leading creative people.

I've loved igniting that creative spirit in the same way that I love creativity. I think it's just one of the best things in life really. So that's always come very easily to me. And actually I enjoy being in an organisation. I love being in a team. I love working. I love the world of work actually. So it has been a bit of a contradictory journey, but it is something that gives me a lot of room to think and really reflect on, is this the best that we could do? What are we missing here? And for me, I've always been able to come at it with a sense of,

This isn't the whole picture yet. We haven't figured out the whole thing yet. It's a good start, but there's a lot more that we can bring to this world of work and world of intentional living. But for me, there are still some things missing.

Digby Scott (: 16:26

I that question. noticed as you said, is this the best we can do? I just felt a shift in my body then. It was like, yes, what a great question to be asking. It's not a question that's about being critical. It's about what else can we discover here? What else and what else? And looping back to this idea of words create worlds and that words are not enough, as you said, tell us about that.

I've never thought about this before. Words are not enough. What are we missing when we say words or you say words are not enough?

it's a question that I asked the whole time that I was journeying around the globe, you know, exploring and experimenting with life. And it actually took me ages to try and figure out. But what I have landed on is that I think that vibrational language is the next step for us as humans, understanding how we can develop a framework for vibrational communication and communion that allows a more holistic and embodied sense of connection with each other. for me,

You you said this phrase, words create worlds. You said that to me in conversation the other day and I thought, that's so interesting because I think that's the default. Everyone thinks that's correct. And so because it's something that's been hanging around in the ether for such a long time, we've, just accepted it as truth. But I would say vibration gives us the keys to understanding the universe. So while language might be human to human, I think vibration is actually human to everything. And so if we can tap into that and if we can learn how to understand it and

framework, then I think that it's a way to expand our experience of what it means to be human and what it means to connect with other life forces. So how we connect with animals, with nature, you know, with each other, with ourselves. I think a vibratory landscape is a huge base for us to explore. And for me, I've done that through my writing and my painting. And it's taken me a long time to be able to language it because for a very long time I was trying to feel into it and trying to understand.

Jordan Harcourt-Hughes (: 18:23

what that meant to me. This is the crux of it. think that where we are in our, I suppose, our language landscape at the moment is a very, it's a very logical language. So logic informs language as we know it. So it's very much mental, it's very rational, and it allows a certain picture of the world, but it misses the parts that I think are really important as well, which is the intuitive and the embodied. So everything that we feel in our bodies, I think is far more important than we give it credit for.

And even if we know it's important, even if we have practices about embodiment and using our body as a form of intelligence and feeling into situations and feeling and enhancing our awareness, I don't know that it has as much credit as I would like it to have. I think we need to validate that a lot more.

So an example of vibrational for me, and I'm trying to make sense of this as he talk, is when you said, know, essentially is there a better way? What else could we be doing here? And I said, I noticed something in my body. I noticed I shifted. That's a vibrational response. that what you mean by vibrational? I'm curious about that word.

It is. Look, vibration, I think, is very much about resonance. And when something resonates with us, we feel it. We physically feel it in our body. And this is what I keep coming back to when I had this idea at a very young age that words weren't enough because we could use them to lie and deceive where I think vibration and resonance is very much more truthful and honest and authentic. think it's very much harder to fake a sense of that authentic.

recognition in our bodies and calibration when we land on something. You know, when someone tells you something and you get goosebumps, have that feeling a lot. And that's our body kind of saying, you know, validating what we've just heard. Vibrational language for me, and I've written this down, it's a combination of a number of different things, which is cognition, embodied sensory perception, and awareness of energy as well. So I think those three things combined.

Jordan Harcourt-Hughes (: 20:24

create a better language framework because they are more holistic and they do give us more cues and signals to interpret. You look like you've got a question. What are you thinking?

If you can't see us right now, I am looking up to my left wondering and trying to make sense of this. want to ground this in, if someone's listening and they're a manager and managing a team, how does this play out? If I'm paying more attention to vibration, what does that look like in practice for me? What do I need to be able to master practically that is going to

show that I'm making a shift of some sort.

think it's a really good question and I will get to the answer, but I first want to start with a question because I think it's a good question, but I think it's a question that comes about because we haven't learned or we haven't had the conversation about how to use our bodies as a tool in the workplace or as part of professional landscapes and environments. So for me, we often think about listening. think listening is the best place to start. The more that we can sit and listen, the better. And listening means lots of different things.

So let's go there.

Jordan Harcourt-Hughes (: 21:36

It means listening to one another, but I think it also means listening to our body. And that's a different kind of listening. And where I think the challenge is, is how we understand the word listening and how we understand the word sound. So if we think about sound, we think about what our human perception of sound is, which is what our ears can hear. So we know that our ears can hear a very limited amount of the sound spectrum. And part of that is how we

of developed as humans and it's how our brain works as well to only give us a limited perception of all the different signals that are going on around us because otherwise we would be in overwhelm and overload. our brain actually cuts out a lot of the signals out there to make sure that we can actually function as humans because otherwise we just have too much coming at us. But I think it's worth remembering that we are vibratory creatures. Everything vibrates. Every creature in the universe, everything in the universe is vibrating. That gives us a common experience.

Einstein would say the same thing. You know, he said everything is energy and that's all there is to it. You know, there's nothing but energy and energy vibrating is what the universe is essentially.

Exactly. This is our key to the universe, I think. So if we think about listening, I think we need to change the idea that listening is just about using our ears. So we are vibratory beings and we are made up of what, 70 % water? That gives us the ability to interpret vibration at a physical level, even when it's outside of our listening soundscape. So we can hear using our bodies. So I think we have to learn how to use our bodies to hear and sense. That is a skillset that I think we've kind of

we haven't really paid enough attention to. I think we're starting to, I think there's definitely progress that we're making there. But I think as a manager or as a leader of teams, sensing and feeling into the energetic environment, I think is the next step for us to learn how to use as a tool and a validated tool as well. You know, I don't think this needs to sit in the landscape of fluff, you know, in the way that it might have at one point in time.

Digby Scott (: 23:40

I think this is the key, right? I often talk about four lenses of listening. There's, know, there's the personal listening, which is yourself, relational, which is listening to the relationship you have in conversation with someone else, directional, which is listening to the direction of the conversation and contextual, which is the, the listening to the context, which might be shaping how we're showing up. And you're starting where I start, which is, well, listen to yourself.

and notice what's going on for you, including not just what you're thinking and the stories you're telling yourself, but what's going on in my body? Where am I tense? Where am I feeling excitement? How is that showing up in my body? So to be able listen to you and then for me to go, how am I responding to that? That sounds like a practical set of questions that anyone could adopt.

Absolutely. And I think we already do without necessarily consciously being aware of it. So I think, and you know, there's already lots of books and knowledge out there around the fact that if we see a disconnect between what someone says and what they do or how they stand in their environment, how we sent into them, if we feel a disconnect there, we back away. So we want congruence in the people that we connect with. We are automatically seeking congruence and we stop when we don't find it.

So what's the upside here? What's the benefit? If we're paying more attention, not just to the words, but our bodies and what's going on for us, what's the benefit of that? Again, in a business context, but obviously more than that as well. What's the upside? Because, and it sounds to me like what you're saying is one of the upsides is we get a greater sense of connection with others because there's a congruence. There's a, okay, yeah, they're embodying.

they might be saying something, but I could also sense it at a deeper level that feels like it's congruent. What they're saying is also who they're being.

Jordan Harcourt-Hughes (: 25:37

think there's a number of benefits. So first of all, coherence. When we're in a coherent landscape where things are, we trust, I think it's a higher trust environment because we see that people are what they say they are. When we are moving out of a trust environment, it creates all kinds of dissonance and all kinds of distractions. And sometimes we create these distractions because we don't know how to deal with the dissonance, with the disconnect. And so we can't move forward, but we need the tools to understand that and work through it. So creating that trusting environment is about trusting one another.

being able to show up fully congruent and challenge each other if we're not. Because we can still have arguments and challenge each other when we are fully congruent, but it's a better conversation. It's more authentic, it's more productive. And I think you can get to a plan of action more efficiently and have everyone on the same page and aligned and move forward from there rather than having elephants in the room or people not being able to say what they want to say. So I've been in a thousand meetings in strategic sessions where you know that people just

are not saying what they want to say because they don't feel they've got permission, they don't feel that they'll be heard, they don't feel that they're in alignment. And I think you lose a lot. You lose a lot of people's intelligence, contribution, energy. If you're in that kind of landscape, it's not an efficient or healthy environment to be in. And I don't think it's effective either. So I think the benefits are the opposite of that is where everyone feels congruent. Everyone feels coherent. Everyone feels that they can contribute, they can have a voice.

They can thrash things out in a healthy way and be productive and really feel like they're connecting in the room. And they've got that high trust to be able to move forward and deliver something of value that everyone has been able to really have a say in.

It requires us to slow down, doesn't it? We have to slow down and go, what's going on? Yeah. What's going on for me here? Rather than being on sort of, you know, amygdala hijack, you know, we're just, just charging ahead.

Jordan Harcourt-Hughes (: 27:32

I agree. And that's why I think it's very tough in the world at the moment. Not only do we move very fast, we have a thousand distractions. We have a thousand different things seeking our energy and attention. So it really is something that we have to control. have to pull back and we have to allow places for recalibration and reconnection and attunement. Attunement does take effort. think if we want to get attuned to ourselves, our environment to each other and really fully show up being prepared to

have this kind of connection, which is a deeper connection, I think, with other people. We have to be giving ourselves the time to be present, to really get rid of all the dust and debris of living a busy life and having a thousand things on the go. And I don't think it's hard. I think we just have to be intentional about it. So even taking five minutes to take a breath before you go into a strategy session or downtime, invest in the downtime.

Again, I think we're getting better at understanding that play is actually an investment in our own energy. So creativity and time out, it's not time off. It's just recalibration and reenergizing so that we are better when we come back into the room.

That makes no sense. How do you presence yourself? What are some of the practices you do?

Well, creative practice for a start. So my writing and my painting are the ways that I really ground myself. And for me, that is where the real shifts start to happen because I'm able to move out of that busy logical mindset into a place where I almost feel like I'm on holiday from myself because I don't think. One of the things that I love about painting is it just flat out stops me thinking at all. And as I said, that's like a holiday, you know, and that is where the regeneration and the ideation starts to happen.

Jordan Harcourt-Hughes (: 29:16

because you're not paying attention to it. We need ways to not be always paying attention with our logical mind. That's really healthy, I think.

I've got two guitars in this room that I'm recording, you know, and I'm always picking them up just for five minutes in between other things I'm doing. And to me, takes me out of my head and it gets me into a different mode. something where there's a, something that just gets me focusing in a different way or not focusing actually, that's the trick, isn't it? The willingness to let go of task.

the willingness to let go is, I think, phenomenal. So letting go is one of the biggest lessons, I think, as a human race, we've got to learn. So there's so much, I think, that we are about to be ready to let go of. I think with that comes fear as well. We can hold onto things very tightly. We can hold onto old systems, old ways of doing things, old lines of thinking, because we're fearful of what happens if we let them go. So I think there's a lot of work to be done there, actually.

Where do you find it hard to let go? I think we all experience this, right? What's hard for you in your world? What do you hold on too tightly to sometimes, do you think?

I think expectations. So expectations of other people are really kind of hard to let go of. And, you know, an example of that is for much of my career, I've been leading creative teams and I haven't been leading teams for about 18 months now. So I have stepped out of leadership. And when I was doing that, I was aware that people were expecting me to immediately go into another role where I would be leading teams. And that was the question, know, or the expectation, you know, we'll see with your new team and you'll be able to tell us about your new team and all of this kind of thing. so.

Jordan Harcourt-Hughes (: 30:58

I knew at the time that I needed to take a step back and think about what does leadership mean for me? What does it mean for me in the next phase of my life? Because I like to be intentional, but for me, I felt like there was some other piece of the puzzle that I needed to focus on and it wasn't what I'd been doing. And I came up against a lot of fear there. What's that going to mean for my career? What's that going to mean for people's perception of my abilities? Will I ever lead a team again? You know, all of these sorts of things come up.

And I think I had to just let them go because I really wanted, I really believed in the next step and I really was excited about the next step. But I knew that I would still have this kind of these voices in my head going, well, that's going to be an interesting conversation to have next time you go for a role. And people say, what's this gaffe in your CV? And I will happily talk to it. But I think we all have those challenges that come up when we want to do something that's a little bit different to what people may expect of us.

Well, the 19 year old self, your version of you back then, right? You built a muscle of letting go then, which I suspect served you well later in your career, right? Where it's like, okay, it's one of those moments again where I have to go against the norm, against the grain. Yeah. said expectations. I really get that. Expectations of what we think other people expect of us. And also I think for me, it's the expectations I have of myself. I drive myself probably too hard.

Exactly.

Digby Scott (: 32:19

Yes. And have certain standards. Yeah. And there's something about, dude, just chill. It's fine. And, you know, it doesn't all have to get done today and it doesn't have to be done to that perfect standard. And just 80 % is fine. Man, I find that really challenging. Yeah. And there's something about walking the line between not being slack or complacent yet. You know, it's always what's the better? What's the better? What's the better yet? Being self accepting.

Yeah. It kind of makes me think of this illustration or cartoon that I saw a years ago. And it was this little character who was all sad and upset and he was like, but no one's watching me. And then the opposite, he was jumping around and all excited because no one's watching me. You know, I think we think there are pros and cons to all of these things. Yeah. So I think we have these expectations of ourselves and I, I recognise myself in you and all of those things that you just said about how you can be very hard on yourself. So I try to remind myself.

remind myself that actually sometimes we overestimate how much people are paying attention to us because I think sometimes people are much more forgiving of us than we are of ourselves, you They know about life.

They're not paying that much attention. They've got other stuff to deal with. Talking about letting go, you're moving back to New Zealand in three weeks. with someone who with experience in both worlds, like I have, there's something about a sense of in New Zealand, it's a different sense than being in Australia. What are you noticing about the differences or in terms of how you think about being in the world you're in now?

compared to where you're coming to and have also lived previously. Tell me a little bit about this idea of a smaller world and a bigger world, perhaps.

Jordan Harcourt-Hughes (: 34:11

I pause because it's a really complex question and there are so many things that come up when you say that because I think first of all of the fact that when my husband and I moved to New Zealand, I was done with Australia. I was ready to never come back because the hate and the sensibilities, felt, you know. And I've often felt like that. I've been a nomad for a large portion of my life living in different places and I've been able to be happy wherever I am. And I'm happy wherever I am.

And so New Zealand was wonderful for me and I loved it the minute I got there. But leaving there after five years, I realised that I felt that I just kind of descended into this very small ecosystem. And then when I came back here, not only did I fall back in love with Australia, but I had a sense of, I'm back in a bigger landscape. you know, literally Australia is a bigger landscape. So it's a no brainer really. But I do think it's healthy to have a bit of a change up because I think it's good for all of us to value.

you remember, I think it was: 2022

said goodbye to Australia, didn't thinking we'd ever go back and feeling so heartbroken and so connected to a landscape that I'd said goodbye to and then having these colours really kind of come up in my artwork. And so I think a relationship with land and nature and territory really comes to us in ways that we may not expect. Being back here in Australia, there are things that I now look back at here in New Zealand and I think, gosh, you do these things so well. So for an example, in my last role,

before I left, we had gotten into the practice of singing waiata every Monday morning before we started work. And I actually think that was a lovely way to start the day because it's actually, you know, when we, when we talk about vibration, that is vibrational attunement, that is using our voices to land in our bodies and actually be present in a physical sense as well as a mental sense. And I think actually, I'm not sure we even realised that that's what we were doing.

Digby Scott (: 36:24

For those of you that are listening who don't know what a waiata is, could you explain?

For us, was a practice of bringing the te ao Māori landscape into the world of work. So acknowledging Te Tiriti, acknowledging the Māori world and its value that brings. And waiata is a form of Māori song and prayer. And what we would do is we would sing a number of them.

And we were learning, we were absolute beginners. You know, we had the songs and the words up and we were practicing and mucking around. And so it's not like we were perfect at it by any means, but it was an intentional step to incorporate a cultural aspect that we hadn't done before. And so that in itself was awesome. But this whole other thing was happening in a way, as I said, that I don't think we even realised, which was a vibrational attunement to each other.

to the world that we were living in and working in, but just into our physical selves as well. I look back and think, my goodness, that's amazing. I love that we were doing that. I miss it.

Yeah, to me, I don't get exposed to Waiata enough. And I know just through talking with people who do it almost ritually at work, it's definitely an aligning experience. Vibrationally is a great word for it. There's something about singing together and it's not just a Maori practice. This is in many, many societies. It's really bonding experience.

Jordan Harcourt-Hughes (: 37:45

Absolutely. I think we forget how incredibly fun it is, know, singing together. We've swept it aside and actually we should all bring it back because it's awesome. It's really fun. And also what it really did as a, you know, this was my team and a bunch of other teams and not led by me, by the way, even as the team leader, this was led by people in the team and everyone had the chance to lead it each time we did it. we had a change in the person who stood up the front and took the group through it every time, but it was a practice in

of being silly in front of each other in the sense of we weren't perfect. you know, we kind of felt a little bit embarrassed. You know, we're not perfect singers. We don't really know the words. Sometimes we had a guitarist. Sometimes we were just, you know, doing an acapella, you know. But I think it was a really good way of dissembling our sense of ego, really. It was a good practice of just being ourselves in the room and being okay with each other.

whip out the sex?

Digby Scott (: 38:39

It's very grounding. Yeah. Yeah. Leveling, grounding. I'm inspired. Hey, I'm curious. Here's question. What haven't we explored in this conversation that you think would be cool to explore?

I was reading your book, Changemakers, and I had all of these kinds of things. I mean, actually, what really happened was that I read it and I thought, you're talking about the same things that I'm talking about. You're just talking about it in a slightly different way. But tell me what you think about where we are in terms of the landscape of making change in the world. You know, are a changemaker. You do this with people all the time. Do you think we're getting better at getting adept with change? Or are we still struggling with the idea that change is

just a constant and we can get better at it.

Where my mind goes is that when we say we, if it's seven billion people on the planet, I can't answer that question because it's just too big. What I notice is pockets of energy where I feel like there's possibility and capability that is like it points to here we can have more of that. I use an analogy of a Petri dish as if, you know, what's in a Petri dish is a culture. And if the culture is our world.

or our country or our city or our community. What's in the Petri dish is bacteria. And in this analogy, bacteria are people. And if you can find the bacteria that are most active and you can activate them further, then they can spread and infect bacteria around them and you shift the culture that way. So the way I think about this is that I look for pockets of energy, of capability, of aspiration.

Digby Scott (: 40:21

of agency that's nascent, that's sort of growing. And I see that more and more. I feel like what I need to do often is get out of my little bubble because where I live in Wellington, it's been a pretty hard, dark period for many, many people in Wellington recently. Economically, it's pretty flat and it's easy to drink the Kool-Aid. And so when I look at change in Wellington,

you know, if I was to say, how are we going with leading change, making change happen here? It's easy to go, man, everyone's just on the back foot, right? We're just in survival mode. Yet if I look a little deeper, but also a little further afield, I see pockets of energy. And particularly now I'm just noticing that there's lots of little grassroots things happening here, but also getting out of the local, you know, I'm just about to take off for about 10 weeks overseas and I'm going to go to many different places.

And part of me is going to be looking for what's happening here and what can we learn from that about making positive change happen. So my sense is it's not a direct answer to your question, but I feel like maybe it's about where do we find inspiration? And I think it's everywhere. And it can be in the most micro moments. It can be in the one conversation you have with your barista about what they're wanting to do in their community, you know, and like, how do I help amplify that?

Yeah. So I think a big part of being change makers is being connectors of people's ideas, connected of people. And if we can do that more, look for inspiration and connect it with people who need to hear that. to be honest, part of that, that's the reason this podcast exists is to perhaps take inspiration from talking with you, Jordan, that others might go, yes, that's something to run with. That's something to play with.

How does that go answering your question?

Jordan Harcourt-Hughes (: 42:21

No, I love it. And what I hear is that you're almost seeking for energy to amplify and explore and expand. So you are seeking energy as much as anything, think. Yeah. Which I think is perfect. It's a perfect way to exist.

I was saying to my youngest son last night, he's first year university and he's just a little disillusioned at the moment about where he wants to take things. And, you know, what should I be doing with my life? Those sort of questions, which is great, right? Similar age to, you know, when you were 19. And I suggested to him that maybe a better way is to follow what Parker J. Palmer says. He wrote a book called Let Your Life Speak, which was essentially don't

Try and work out what you want to do with your life. Listen for what your life is asking you to do. And it's essentially a lovely way of saying get out and live life. Go and just try a whole lot of things and see what lights you up. And that's that listen for the energy, listen for the spark. So he took that on board and goes, yeah, I call that go and touch the grass. I said, what do mean by that? And he said,

Well, you know, can sit on your couch and just play games all day, or you can go out and touch the grass, which is a metaphor for get out and experience the world. And I love that he can say that and see that. And I just kind of added another way of describing that on top. I feel like we just all need to be able to do that a bit more and go out and experience what's lighting us up. And it might be the conversation with your local barista. It doesn't have to be big stuff.

Yeah, no, look, and I think knowledge is everywhere. It's not in one place or the other. It's not in academia or kind of expertise. It is the barista, it's the taxi driver, it's the person you talk to at the bus stop. Because knowledge is everywhere and it comes through all of us in different ways. And I think it's contextual as well. think, you know, you can have three people that will tell you something, but it's the connection with one of them that will help you understand it and make it meaningful.

Digby Scott (: 44:17

That's it. What a beautiful place to perhaps land this plane of the conversation we've been having. What's come up for you in the conversation that you've been reminded of or you've learned just through us talking?

probably is that we have a common sensibility even though we express it differently. So I think we all seek to connect, we all seek to find that energy, we all seek to land on the grass really, and we're all finding a different way to express it and explore it. And I think that's a nice common bond that we have. We're all in the journey.

We're all in the journey. Yeah. Lovely. Thank you, Jordan. It's been brilliant. If people were to, well, actually, let's just talk briefly about you've got a book coming up.

Yeah, I do. Yeah, it's out. What's it called? It's called Betroux High Country. So this is my second novel. And as much as anything, it's been what has helped me explore the ideas of vibration and vibrational language. So you can find that on my website, jordanharcourthughes.com or online. You just look it up.

How do you spell it? How do you spell it?

Jordan Harcourt-Hughes (: 45:18

Yeah. It's actually French from my, know, Parisian adventure, perhaps, but true, B-E-T-R-O-U-X. It's the name of a place.

And what's it mean?

Digby Scott (: 45:30

So we know how to find you. Are you also on LinkedIn?

LinkedIn. Yes. Yes. I am on LinkedIn. Please connect. I love LinkedIn. It's pretty busy these days though, right?

Yeah, yeah, I like it as a way of connecting and then taking the conversation offline. That's what I love about it.

How about you Digby?

What have I learned? Yeah. I love your question that you asked me about how we're going being changemakers in the world. And it just reminded me that inspiration and knowledge is everywhere. You know, we don't have to imagine it resides in some ivory tower and some other person's head. Exactly. And the idea of listening for it to me, the idea of listening beyond words.

Digby Scott (: 46:17

to me is just so core now in a way that I don't think I'd fully appreciate it at the beginning of our conversation. So thank you for that.

thank you. That's great. That makes me happy. What a great conversation. Thank you, Digby.

Jordan.

Digby Scott (: 46:36

just reflecting on that deep conversation with Jordan Harcourt Hughes, I often say you cannot not have an impact. And this conversation with Jordan is just reminding me that my impact is not just the words that I say, it's also the way I show up.

You could say energetically, right? The way that I am holding myself. You know when you can sense that something's not quite right with someone or they're just like they're a little off kilter, but what's coming out of their mouth is not quite the message their body is giving you. And I think this is the essence of when Jordan's talking about connecting to vibrations, which is you could say, yeah, that sounds a bit woo woo, but when we get real practical about it, it's like, well.

How are you getting congruence between what you're saying and how you're showing up as your whole self, including your body? And there's something about that idea of if we can get that congruence, then we're more likely to able to create connection and trust. And then that just removes friction so we can have higher quality conversations. We can be more real. We can get to the essence of things faster just by listening to our bodies. And to me, that's the biggest takeaway.

getting from this conversation. There'll be a bunch more, no doubt, as I reflect a bit further. What about for you? I'm wondering what got you moving, thinking, where did that conversation stop you in your tracks a little? Go and have a conversation with someone else about this. Share this episode. It'd be something to be interesting to see what other people think when you get into a conversation about this idea of listening to yourself. A couple of pieces I wrote come to mind that you might like to read. One of them is called

The Let Go and another one is Deal in Energy. These are pieces I wrote a couple of years ago, but seem to be really aligned with what Jordan and I were talking about. So check those out. I'll put the links in the show notes as well. Also, please share this episode and subscribe in your podcast feed. If you like this, you'll like the rest of them, no doubt. And until next time, I'm Digby Scott. This is Dig Deeper. Go well.