36. Stepping Into Visibility, Reading the Room, and Why Leadership Isn't About Being Perfect | Cam Fink

Cameron Fink (: 00:10

lot of people completely misjudge what their audience or employees or people need and want. Nearly everybody just wants a human connection. They want to be seen, they want to be clear on what's expected of them, they want to be recognised for the work that they do. Often instruction or policy comes a distant second to just feeling a connection.

Digby Scott (: 00:41

Everything that makes you uncomfortable about being seen is exactly what's holding you back as a leader. Well today I'm walking by the ocean and sitting in a Wellington playground with Cam Fink. He's a videographer who spent years on the other side of the lens observing what happens when leaders step into visibility.

We explore together why being comfortable on camera isn't really about cameras at all. It's about your willingness to be authentically seen. And Cam shares what he's learned about energy, presence and human connection from filming thousands of people and why the skills that make you compelling on video are the same ones that make you an engaging leader. So whether you're leading a team meeting or recording your first LinkedIn video, this conversation will change how you think about showing up authentically in any situation where you need to

influence and inspire others. By way of background, Cam is a videographer, director and the creator of the brilliantly named course Be Less Shit on Camera. He's also my go-to person for helping me feel comfortable and confident whenever there's a camera pointed in my direction. Let's get into it.

you

Digby Scott (: 01:57

Cam, you know, we've known each other a while, but I've never asked you the question, how did you get into the work that you do? Videography, coaching people to be less shit on camera, directing, what drew you into this whole field in the first place?

I, like many people, have a journey that feels like a series of coincidences.

Yeah, I mean, you plan it.

It wasn't particularly planned. It was one event after another, one project after another that led down a path that feels like a career. But it wasn't necessarily planned that way. And so my history of being a videographer probably starts at making stupid home videos. So I loved filming fun holidays events. My dad had a home video and that was really not common. Dad had a three unit home video VHS system that had

Alright.

Cameron Fink (: 02:50

a two kilogram battery. what is this? Oh, dad, dad was filming it. That's the start of the curiosity for me. My dad liked technology. He'd liked buying things that were a bit cutting edge at the time. Oh, yeah. And so

This is what you filmed with.

Digby Scott (: 03:05

Same with you.

or less so now. But that was where it started. And then I loved making home videos on my holidays with my friends or travelling overseas. And I liked editing them down into little clips that people would actually watch.

Yeah, well, okay. So it wasn't just about doing it was about the sharing.

Yeah, I always loved the ability to share something that people would actually want to see. And the stereotypical slide night that someone has gone on a holiday often instills a sense of dread in people who are invited because often they're long, boring, and don't focus on things that are interesting. And I really like the challenge of making things that were interesting. And then after I did that, the next step was my friend, it wasn't even a close friend, got a job hosting

how many segments for a TV show at the World Cup, the Football World Cup. And he called me and said, Cam, I've got a gig and I think you might be my camera operator.

Digby Scott (: 04:05

What made him think that, reckon? Like, what was it about what he saw in you that he decided to ask you to do that?

Well, the main part about it was that we were going to be in each other's pockets for a whole month. We need to get along and we need the skills. So he needed someone who had the skills. But the thing about it that was interesting to me is that the skills didn't come first. They weren't the first consideration. So having enough skill is the price of entry. You've got to be good enough, but it's not necessarily being the best that gets you the gig or the job. And so we went to South Africa at the World Cup.

Okay, so we need to get on.

Digby Scott (: 04:28

Yeah

Digby Scott (: 04:32

Yep. Yep.

Cameron Fink (: 04:42

and we made comedy segments for a TV show in Australia that was quite well followed at the time. was Santo, Sam and Ed's Cup Fever. And anyone who's into football in Australia will have seen that show. And Santo Cilauro is one of the co-creators of the Australian classic, The Castle.

Yep. Yep.

And so...

Sorry, car's just driving past. We're walking the streets of Island Bay, digs new neighbourhood.

We're still navigating.

Cameron Fink (: 05:08

and we're still navigating. And so getting to go on this TV show was just a huge opportunity. It was amazing. I'd never had a press media pass before. Wow. And so we spent a month in South Africa making comedy bits and we did okay. I wouldn't say we set the show on fire, but we had a good time. And I used that money to buy a better camera.

Aha, then the snowball started.

So this snowball starts and so then I get a call from another mate asking me to go to the Ashes, the cricket series between Australia and England. So I get to go to England on a no expenses paid trip. So my mate calls me and says, boy have I got an offer for you. I've got a gig covering the Ashes and England. We're going to get flights from British Airways and $5,000 between us.

which is both our expense money and our salary to cover the grigot for eight weeks. But why not, right? But why not? Huge opportunity. So I did that. And we did pretty well there too. That was pretty fun and I enjoyed the experience. But none of that made any money, really. And then, Pete Cook founded something called Business School, Thought Leaders Business School with Matt Church. And my brother Col worked for them. I've known people my whole life.

and you knew Pete before that.

Cameron Fink (: 06:30

But Col called me one day, I had no idea what he was even doing, I knew he worked for Pete, and said, I've got a problem with the PA at an event, I need you to come and solve it quickly, and please put on a shirt.

Okay, so it's pretty much you being in the right place at the right time and saying yes to pretty much every... Based on an interest, a fascination. So can we dig a bit deeper into what's the fascination for you with this word? Like what's the enduring draw to it for you?

Exactly.

Cameron Fink (: 07:01

I quite like being in a room full of people. I like capturing energy and I like fun. Okay. And so when Col asked me to solve the problem, I came down with a cable or a mixing desk, whatever it was, I fixed the problem. And Pete said, you might want to stay in this room, Cam. I had no idea who was in it, didn't know who the people were, didn't know what it was for. And it was a room full of solo practice entrepreneurs. And they were all up to something. And I sat in that room.

and I listened to what they were saying and I was interested. They were people with fizzing ideas and they had a curiosity and an intelligence about them that I found appealing. And I was then asked at the end of that day, hey Cam, you're now the production manager for this company. Yeah, Pete Vollen told me for the job, because they needed someone. And as you say, you get asked to do things

You ain't even asking Tom.

Cameron Fink (: 07:55

based on what someone else thinks of you, not necessarily what you think of yourself. Yeah, yeah, and what they see in your potential or what you care about or what drives you and the quality of your work. But I often think the quality of the work is the secondary consideration for why you pick someone for a job. It's like, does this feel like the person who's going to do this well, who has the right energy for this?

and what they see in you.

Digby Scott (: 08:16

That's an important message, isn't it?

And so Pete's choice of me, I think was as much, do I trust Cam to take care of the people who are in this room.

That's a big, big thing, isn't it? And for anyone listening, whether you're a videographer or probably not, this idea of, I need to take care of something. I need to be able to bring out the best, particularly in leadership role, bring out the best in other people. I think that's a lot about what you're about too, Whenever I've worked with you, that's what I felt is your primary job. It's not the...

getting the technical bits right is making the person or people that you're capturing on film, it's bringing out their essence in some way that then portrays to an audience.

and bringing it out on camera is hard. A lot of people struggle with bringing their best self to camera because being on camera is difficult, it's tricky. Not a lot of people get practice with it. We feel very self-conscious on camera. And so when people want to capture it, they're not really in a good position to capture their best selves right off the bat. It's not easy being on camera. And so the job might seem like a technical one. Yeah.

Digby Scott (: 09:12

Why is that?

Cameron Fink (: 09:35

and you need to know how to use your equipment, but it's not really the job.

It's a human skill, right? It's a human skill of connection.

Yeah, and the part about it that I enjoy, the thing that gives me great pleasure is helping people find themselves in a format that they don't necessarily have a lot of experience or comfort with and doing something that they're proud of. Yeah.

And so what is it that you do or you enable them to overcome? What's the essence of that? Like if there's one or two things that you think they can overcome this or they can just focus on that, what are those things? Whether it's in front of camera or this is really just about being more relaxed and more authentic, I think, isn't it? How do you help them get there?

By being the me that I was before I picked up a camera anyway. So this is the interesting part about discovering what your job is. Okay. So I've always loved creating fun. I've always loved being the impetus driver for a collective experience. I love organising an event that's big and colourful, has lots of people, lots of fun, and I like that completely apart from touching a camera. Yep.

Cameron Fink (: 10:56

Yeah, I love travel, I love being curious, I love meeting people, I like going somewhere where I don't know anyone or anything and finding out what's possible. And I love helping someone discover a bit more of themselves that they might have been shy to. Yeah. I like creating an energy from what seems like a bad position. How do you turn a bad position into a good one?

This is all about what you love to do. So what saying, by being the version of you that was there even before you became a videographer or a director, it's about my purpose is to create fun and aliveness and that stuff, right? Yeah.

Yeah, the thing that I enjoy the most in my life and in my work is creating fun environments and energy with people. That's what I'm really driven by, that's what I enjoy.

And you are greater. The work that I've done with you, I'm always more relaxed after a video session with you than I am before. Maybe this is the same here too, right now.

And Col, my brother, his assessment of what small business is, is that it's an energy exchange. Col says, when you're starting out as a solo practitioner in any field, in whatever service you're doing, he says what you're selling is your energy.

Digby Scott (: 12:13

Yeah, and I'd say the same is true for not in this small business, right, but you're a dealer in energy, right? And you've got to manage that energy. You've got to activate that energy in other people. And I think that's what essentially your job is about too, right?

You're a leader.

Cameron Fink (: 12:29

Yeah, I think so. And mine's very specifically overtly about that because you get this tangible artifact afterwards of a recording of what you are and what you're about and your energy. at a fundamental level, most transactions between people are an energy exchange. And what you remember is how someone made you feel. There's that famous quote, like, will forget what you said or possibly even what you did, but they will remember how you made them feel. And so if I can provide an environment where someone feels good, that's fun for me.

Regardless of whether or not the camera's on.

That's your primary metric, isn't it, right?

Did we have a good time? Did collectively something fun, exciting, insightful, energetic happen?

What is it about, and most people have an aversion to being on camera in some form, right? Being recorded in some way. You've filmed thousands of people, you've been on the other side of the lens, you've seen all of these different folks respond to this black box pointed at them. What is that about for the ones who are just going, I hate being on camera. What's going on, do you think?

Cameron Fink (: 13:41

The primary problem is that most people don't have experience being on camera. it's not an issue of whether or not you have a natural aptitude for it or whether or not you're photogenic or if you have a nice voice. That's not the problem. The problem is you haven't done it. And no one is good at something they haven't done. Most people get on camera thinking, my skill is an orator, my skill is a teacher, my experience as a facilitator will get me through whatever I need to do in front of the camera.

It's an unfair expectation. You can't be good at something without having experience in it. And for whatever reason, people think that being good on camera, the skill required can be transferred from another area of aptitude.

There's another angle on this I want to kick around, which is you said to me once when I was like, I'm feeling really uncomfortable. And you said to me, well, that's what you look and sound like, Get used to it, because that's what people experience of you every day. Right. And I'm like, there's something about what if we just remove the story that I have to be someone different on camera than I am in my normal day to day conversations with people I like. Right.

So it's a bit of a distinction to be made here because crudely you are correct in that yes, that's people... Well, how you look and sound is how people see and hear you. But it's not how you see and hear yourself. And so there's two little barriers to overcome. The first one is learning to like the you that's on camera or on a recording because you don't know that person. And you have to learn to get to like them.

Crudely I'm correct.

Digby Scott (: 15:23

Yeah, I've got to know that person a lot with this podcast and podcasts I've done with you. when I listen back, I'm now going, yeah, that's how I sound. Okay. Good. That's fine. Yeah. I'm accepting it.

You've got to learn to like the person that you look and sound like on video. And you then have the second area of learning to be comfortable with the medium. So you're not yourself when you're on camera. And everyone's experienced this. You think you're ready, you think you're prepared, you know what you're going to say as soon as the record button gets touched, you go to pieces.

Yeah, it's interesting. And even if we don't have a camera on us and say it's public speaking, or we need to run a meeting with people we don't know, there's something about the consciousness. But to be honest, I'm feeling a little now as we walk, I'm conscious that there's this eye on me, or eyes on me, and I'm thinking, what are they thinking? Right? And so that's a barrier for me in some ways. And what advice do you have for people who are thinking that?

That does not happen. That really doesn't happen. Like, it's not a 0 % chance, but our fear is completely disproportionate to the actual risk. Yeah. We are way too self-conscious in what we think the potential downside is. Reality is, if you turn in a shocker, no one sees it.

Ha ha ha!

Digby Scott (: 16:52

they're not gonna really care that much. So what do you reckon the relationship between someone's comfort on camera is with their broader comfort with say leadership visibility? Like, cause I was with a client the other day, head of HR for this company. And she said, you know, our CEO, we don't see him that much. And that makes me concerned. He's not a very visible CEO.

He's good in some areas, but the staff want to see him more. And I think leadership visibility, like being able to be accessible or be relatable at least, is something that I think we all need to be able to cultivate. What is our comfort or discomfort with being on camera? How does that relate to, in your experience, someone's comfort with just being visible generally and having a message to share?

I think a lot of people completely misjudge what their audience or employees or people need and want. So nearly everybody just wants a human connection. They want to be seen. They want to be clear on what's expected of them. They want to be recognised for the work that they do. Often instruction or policy comes a distant second to just feeling a connection.

Tell us more, that's interesting.

Digby Scott (: 18:14

So feeling seen and heard and valued.

Or being clear of purpose. If I'm an employee, I want to know what I'm meant to be doing. Here's an example that harks back to my first job. So we're in South Africa for the World Cup. We've been tasked with making these comedy sketches for a live TV show in Australia. Tony and I are working our arses off. We're working 15 hours a day. I'm doing all night edits. They're not showing our clips and we hear nothing from them.

It was awful. Yes, a bit disparaging.

So for the first four days of that job, I felt like I was pouring my heart and soul and all of my energy into a bottomless hole. And I got nothing back. And I was breaking me. I was really upset. I was losing motivation. I was feeling very frustrated. And I sent an email to Santo, who I don't really know, saying, Santo, have you got five minutes for a call with me? I'm kind of battling here a bit, mate. And he said, yeah, of course. Got on the phone with me straight away. Said, Santo, I have no idea what we're doing wrong.

You haven't shown any of our clips, we're not hearing anything. What do we need to do? And he said, Cam, you're doing great. Yeah. Your clips have been amazing. We've had four hours of content we're trying to squeeze into a half hour show and we're flying over the seat of our pants here and everything's chaos. We love the stuff that you've done. We just haven't found room for it yet. Keep going, mate. Yeah. And so that put the pet back in my stead. We went on and made three more clips. They showed the next three clips. They got aired. We started getting feedback from people at home. All of this stuff, instead of being this

Cameron Fink (: 19:43

isolating experience where I didn't know what I was doing and feeling completely unseen and unacknowledged and unvalued. Yeah, completely switched as soon as I I got to talk to Santa.

The vacuum and the store in your head just evaporated.

Yeah, and all the doubt, the imposter syndrome, the worry that our stuff was crap, all of that went away. With five minutes of being seen and heard by our boss. Yeah. And so when people don't want to be on camera, when people are reluctant to show themselves on camera, they're forgetting, I think, that what people want is to know who they're dealing with.

There you go.

Digby Scott (: 20:19

And whether it's on camera or not, right? it's like just showing up and walking around or doing a quick phone call.

Yeah, and so one of the things that we undervalued is How much people appreciate just getting to see who we are? Yeah, yeah And if you record a short 30-second video of how you're starting your day or something that funny that happened in the park or And a thought occurred to you when you were walking your dog. Yep, if you share that Yeah, what people are getting isn't really the message that you're sharing They're getting a glimpse into who you are and your essence in what you're like

I love that

And most people, if you ask them what did you enjoy about that video, they won't be able to tell you what the message was.

There was something about, I got to see a bit of who they are. Yeah, I love that.

Cameron Fink (: 21:09

I got to feel what this person's about. I got to see their gardener I got to see where they like to go for a walk. and if you have a professional relationship with someone yeah It's really rewarding to learn what they like

Absolutely right, so drop the walls a little and show us who you are, not just what you need to say. We're in a new habitat now and I've already noticed my voice is calmer.

We're sitting in a park, there's a playground near, there's kids laughing, but there's no longer crashing waves and loud cars.

or people trying to push us into the traffic. It's nice, yeah.

We had set some joggers before and some walkers perhaps on a narrow path and Dibby and I are too abreast taking up the entire line.

Digby Scott (: 21:53

And then they're thinking, don't want to be on camera, which was all about what we're talking about anyway, right?

And I'm noticing now that both of us have not quite relaxed into this. We're aware of where we are, we've consciously changed our voices, and at the moment we still need to settle.

You're very observant. I think that's one of the reasons I love this conversation, because you're such a good observer of people, right? You are not just that you look through a lens at people, but that you have this ability to notice dynamics, you notice mood, you notice someone's tension. How does that serve you, do you reckon?

I didn't know that I did that for a long time. I reckon it's only the last 10 years, and I'm nearly 50, that I've come to realise that I really enjoy that and that I do it differently possibly to a lot of people.

How so

Cameron Fink (: 22:54

Really important and intentional for me to generate an environment where someone feels good or they get the best out of themselves. And underneath that is the fizz of the excitement that it brings me. So let's not pretend I'm an altruist. It's just what gives me the most joy.

There's a lot of selfishness in this, in a good way, right?

everything like you can't ever possibly be a philanthropist if you want to be pedantic about it but what I've found rewarding and I've enjoyed developing is an attitude and an approach that says everybody and elevates everyone. That's what I love. Yeah.

I'm curious about you often film groups of people. What have you learned through being on the other side of the lens about group dynamics, about what creates a healthy group dynamic, either the leader or the environment, whatever it is, what comes up when I ask you that question?

As a videographer, if it's my job to film a day, the thing that I have to work on initially is safety that cameras are there at all. A lot of people get very self-conscious when there's a camera in the room and they're mindful of how they're behaving. They start watching themselves and they're very aware of how they're coming across. And that's really important for my job to minimise the impact of that. But what I notice is that that's happening a lot of the time anyway.

Digby Scott (: 24:09

They're editing themselves.

Cameron Fink (: 24:21

A lot of rooms have that going on even if there isn't a camera. And saying this is a safe space, which people play lip service to a lot of the time, doesn't actually make anything a safe space. And so what I enjoy doing is trying to behave and lead behavior and model what I think creates a safe environment. So videographers typically will want to be a fly on the wall. And the role often is usually a guy in

What's an example of that?

Cameron Fink (: 24:51

a black outfit, the innocuous staff uniform, trying to capture shots from a distance and not trying to involve themselves in the process at all. over time I've developed the exact opposite approach.

I've noticed that with you over the years. What is that?

So that's about trying to set the safety in the room that it's okay to be energetic, it's okay to be boisterous and you don't have to be afraid of the camera and I've worked on my spiel for what I say to the room. I say that I'm here to capture the energy and I'm here to make everyone look good. I want to make it really clear that my motivation is to make everyone look and feel and sound great, to bring their best selves. And I've discovered that I get to do that better by doing it at the front of the room.

What do you say? What do you say?

Cameron Fink (: 25:41

So it's more effective if I'm not asking people to do it, if I'm modeling it myself. Yeah.

I love that and you're giving permission, I think, through that as well, just to say, hey, here's what we're here for. And I want to play a role in making this happen as much as you do. Right. So.

And it's less about giving an instruction. It's not telling people what to do because people hate being told what to do. It's instead just being it.

It's intention setting, right? And it's intention signaling. And I think, you know, it doesn't have to be the videographer who does that. You know, I think this can be, if you're leading the group, that's exactly what you can do too, right? You can be like, okay, what I'd love to have today is all of our energy come out. And I really want to help that happen. Let's go. You know, and I think, I love that though you've claimed that as part of your role because it's shifting from being bystander to activator.

And recognizing the authority that you can have in a room subtly and powerfully and without ego. I wondered and worried for a while that whether or not I was being a show pony by doing that and whether or not I was trying to make it about me. And it would be easy for anyone in the room to say that I was making it about me. That's a criticism that I'm exposing myself to by behaving that way.

Digby Scott (: 26:56

Yeah, look at him do that thing, right? This is about us, not about him. What's he doing?

So it's a delicate balance and you have to do it well and I'm not claiming to be an expert but I've definitely learned that I get a better outcome.

And I noticed actually when I'm facilitating and I'm in flow and I'm doing a good job, for example, a couple of days ago I was working with a group with about 40 people and time flew for them. Someone said at the end of the day, they said, man, is it four o'clock already? Wow, where did the time go? And I think it was because they were less conscious about what they had to say and who was in the room and all of this stuff. And they were just getting into the work and loving the connection with each other. And I see that's...

the job of the host, the facilitator, whatever, and you know, the leader. And leadership, think, is one of things that's come up for me as you say that is leadership can take many forms. It can take the follow me, do it my way, here's what we're here to do, and it's very telly, or it can be the role model. Hey, this is about energy. Let's bring out the energy. Let's bring out the brilliance that's in this room together. I really want that for us, which is a very different form of leadership.

And there's a time and place for both. So one thing that I'm often mindful of is what does this moment need? Our friend Simon Dowling talks about it. What does this place, what does this group of people, what serves this moment? And that can change depending on the combination of people or the purpose of the assembly or whatever the thing is. And so in the day when we were organising big holiday events for our friends, you need the dickhead to get up the front and say, hey, everyone follow me.

Cameron Fink (: 28:31

That's the only way that it works. And I've been that dickhead. And honestly, I liked it.

I was Shane Midley.

And as I've matured, I've realised possibly some of the negative aspects of the way I used to behave that way that I just don't really want to do anymore, but that I'm not sorry that I did it. Like that served a purpose. It helped create a movement and a momentum that a democracy can't create. You need someone to get up and say, hey, this is what we're doing. And the soft touch leadership that I've admired in you and learnt from you is...

the way you can create a space and an energy for people to be more of themselves. And if they've already come together for a purpose, you don't have to do that part. That's already been done. They're there. And I've watched you and I've heard from you that your intention is often give them the minimum amount they need and get out of the way.

That's right.

Digby Scott (: 29:24

Yeah, it's the distinction between being a hero and being a host, right? And they're both active roles, they're both choices.

and you can be a host hero. So for example, when I'm filming, I love getting a shot of the room going raucous with applause, because it looks great. If I'm producing a show reel or a speaker reel or a sizzle of an event day, having a crowd go absolutely bonkers is really good footage. And the way that often comes about is if I get up on stage.

tell me about that.

Cameron Fink (: 29:59

And I say, hey everybody, I've got cameras here. Would you mind going wild with applause because it's going to look great.

And it feels great. You did it for me. I remember we did a day a couple of years ago where we had about 100 people in the room and it's exactly what you did. And to be honest, it is tickling the ego in a good way. That's great. You know what? You're demonstrating a skill of reading the room that I think sometimes a lot of us can forget. This idea that I've got this message to deliver, I've got to be able to get my point across.

everyone enjoys it.

Digby Scott (: 30:34

and I've got these 10 slides to go through with all these bullet points and all this stuff, and I've got 20 minutes to do it. And we can focus so much on the content and we can forget the intent, which is to engage. And I think what you're brilliant at, and I think potentially my guess is, is because you've been able to be away from the action and observe it, you can read the room. How do you teach someone that skill to be able to read the room?

This is exactly where I was hoping you were going to go. Because I think you are possibly in the worst position to be teaching this because you have a charisma that not everyone can have. And the danger I think is often when someone observes an expert and thinks, I want to be like them, and you can't. You can't imitate someone who's got a different kind of personality than you. And there was a wonderful example I heard where someone we know

in a pretty safe environment amongst trusted friends said, I have never received even the welcome that Digby gets when he walks into a room. People are happy to see Diggs. Diggs has got lots of great friendships and people who love him and he's an easy guy to like. And so if Digby walks into a room full of people who know him, he's probably going to get a pretty rousing welcome. And you might have forgotten that. for a lot of people, they won't ever have that.

That's fascinating.

And so I think it's also really useful to be honest about that if you're trying to teach. You can't be what you aren't. Yep. And I enjoy doing what I'm doing now because it feels like an extension of me.

Digby Scott (: 32:11

I feel like we're both at that point in our work where we've gone, well, yeah, I've tried all those other things. This is how I roll best and this is how I be in service. I think it's not really just about you feeling good, definitely that, but it's also a way of being in service that has the greatest impact because...

And it's uncomfortable leaning into the idea that the natural you is the best version of you. And a lot of people, think myself included, probably you and definitely other people I know, find it really uncomfortable to acknowledge that if they were just doing more of the things they were naturally good at, they'd be more effective, they'd be more commercial, they'd be more popular, they'd have a bigger impact. All of these flow-on effects from just leaning into who you are.

It doesn't come naturally to most people. I would say it has taken me five years plus of doing this to feel comfortable with it.

What are the stories we're to tell ourselves about why we can't be that person or half the time we might not even know who that person is? What gets in the way?

the disproportionate impact of negative feedback. So... is it the f***? Well, either the fear or the reality of it. So for example, if you are willing to put yourself out there, if you post a newsletter or post videos on LinkedIn or do whatever you do that exposes yourself to general public scrutiny, someone hates it. And every now and then they'll tell you. And the impact of that one negative comment is completely disproportionate to the actual effect that it has.

Digby Scott (: 33:21

Fear of negative feedback?

Digby Scott (: 33:45

It served a purpose which was actually to get me out of my own way, my ego, which is like, I'm amazing. And it just helped me go, am I? And I'm wondering what else I could be doing that would make this even better. Not how do I keep that person happy, but let me just check. Is it good?

And when did this happen?

How many years ago? Yeah. 10? Yeah, decade ago.

How long have you been doing this kind of work when that happened? Right, so even with years of experience you can still get knocked by one bit of negative feedback, right? so that takes a resilience and a practice that takes effort and time.

yes.

Digby Scott (: 34:28

I think it's also about conviction though, right? If you decide...

But you can't shortcut the conviction. where I'm going with this is that it's easy to watch other people roll with it. And it's easy to see people talk about not paying attention to the negative feedback like we are right now. But the reality is you have to have been exposed to it for a long time and have done the work possibly in private to come across as a natural or someone who's unruffleable. And one of the most frustrating bits of feedback I see other people get when they're trying to do something or they...

are willing to post a video or get up on a soapbox of any kind and share an opinion, when someone gets in the comments and says, you're a natural.

Cameron Fink (: 35:14

Yeah. And I feel this particularly keenly if they've just done a course with me or a process of going through a month of really uncomfortable growth to get to the point where they feel safe enough to do it. And getting comfortable with the idea of not being for everyone.

Yeah, absolutely, and we don't want to be for it.

You don't want to be for everyone, but that's really hard to embody when you're starting out or when you're a bit nervous because negative feedback has a huge impact and when you're not confident in who you're appealing to or if you haven't got a big enough market or you're not well known enough, you think, I don't want to put anyone offside. Yeah. And as Col Fink, my brother says, you want to be magnetic, but guess what? You're going to repel just as many people as you attract because that's the nature of magnets.

Some stuff isn't even magnetic itself, so it's not even going to go there, right?

So to be attractive, to pull the people towards you, a natural and inevitable byproduct is repelling people too and learning to be okay with that. And that's hard.

Digby Scott (: 36:12

What advice would you give to someone who's trying to find their own way, their own natural way of leading? Whether it be on camera or not, what's the practical way to navigate that territory?

to willingly expose yourself to judgment. Because that is also inviting connection from people who like you.

I love it. So there's a reinforcement there.

You have to expose yourself to positive feedback and luck. You increase your surface area for luck. And so saying yes to things and offering yourself forward. So say for example, all right, I'm going to show a bit of my hobby on my LinkedIn. I'm going to record a video of me doing my pottery class. I don't know how that's going to go. I'm not sure if I've got a labored

B2B sales metaphor in my spinning wheel crockery or maybe I'm just gonna say hey on the weekends I love to make pops and here's where I go. Someone out there is gonna love that. Someone out there is gonna be frothing that you're into pottery wheel craft and they're gonna go all and when you see them they might not tell you in the comments or they might not even like the post but someone out there will be more attracted to you because you were willing to show that.

Digby Scott (: 37:24

be 1%, right? But I reckon there'll be another 50 % who go, oh, human, rather than, oh, thought leader or leader or whatever they are. It's like, oh, there's a human being a human.

I had to learn that encouraging people to be more of themselves is definitely not encouraging them to be more like me.

And I think again, it's something about the removing of what is not you and taking off the facade that perhaps you've been wearing for a while. I certainly know earlier in my career when I was taking leadership roles really early on and you know, all the stories I had about all the boss needs to know the answers and the boss has to tell people what to do and all of this stuff. And man, that was stressful.

When? And led to a savage burnout. Yeah!

And it led to a savage burnout and also led to some mentors giving me some lovely feedback about, drop that shit, mate. And just be you and disconnect in ways that people go, oh yeah, I want a bit of that energy. Again, coming back to the energy thing, right? I think when I've been at my best, it's about when am I bringing my most natural energy to something. Which is a lovely way to say, get out of the office and take one of your team members on a walk or go for a walk by yourself. You don't even have to be filming, right? Just get into a space that...

Digby Scott (: 38:44

helps you feel more you. What are you noticing about how our conversation's going now that we're sitting here in the park, we've been sitting on this bench for 20 minutes.

After about 10 minutes I thought, I'll stop thinking about this.

Now I just put it back in your head.

Well, it's worth noticing those things because you can gently nudge them. And so I notice if I'm using a presenter voice that I can ease my way out of it if I just notice and gently nudge myself back to conversation voice. And I think most people can do that if you try. And if you just start to be aware of it and start to notice things in yourself that feel staged. And if you can feel presenter voice coming on,

Just thinking, can I drop my shoulders?

Digby Scott (: 39:31

Or watch your presenter voice.

I wanna know it.

It's a bit louder. Boy, we heard it at the start of this video. My presenter voice is, I'm big and loud and fun, and I'm gonna tell you a thing that you need to know.

And what's your normal?

Well, hopefully the one that people have been hearing for the last five or ten.

Digby Scott (: 39:50

I reckon that's good. I feel like we want to walk and well, I don't know about you, but there's a bit of a directive. So let's go for a walk. We'll walk this way. What haven't we talked about that would be interesting and helpful?

I think people, anyone who wants to build connection, rapport with a team, positioning in a market, anything like that, you need to viscerally learn what people respond to. You can't be taught, you have to feel it because there is no one I have coached who believed me when I said, you show videos of your hobbies, that will improve your relationships with everyone and your professional standing if you just make a casual selfie video and post it.

Everyone benefits from that.

So what are people responding?

People respond to moments of levity, they respond to understanding what life outside of work is like. People like learning about hobbies, depths to your character, they like seeing you in your natural environment. They like watching you make mistakes and laugh at yourself.

Digby Scott (: 41:01

Plenty of those on this video.

Yeah, so people believe that they've got to be sharing wisdom or originality or insight and often you don't, you just have to share a bit of yourself, an observation about what life's like. People don't need ingenious, brilliant, innovative ideas. They often just want familiarity, something they can relate to and something that builds rapport. And it's very hard to believe that for someone who hasn't done it, that that's valuable.

I tell you what, I've been making videos for years and I get in my own head a lot about that still. And so just hearing you say that now is really helpful for me.

So there you go, if you're listening to this, Deeks has been doing this for years, is good at it, knows he's good at it, knows the theory of why this works, and he still gets that feeling. And so do I. Everyone gets that feeling. And I reckon my track record of having that feeling validated is nearly zero. It's almost never, never a bad thing to just share of yourself. The worst that can happen is that it gets ignored.

Terrible. Terrible.

Cameron Fink (: 42:11

And here's the thing, here's the thing that I love, if you're posting and you're nervous, you're probably checking to see how many likes and how much engagement it got. And if you post something that bombs, here's the good news, no one knows.

That's right, there's no visibility.

Only five people saw it. So there's no negative impact.

Yeah, there's not like there's someone going, Oh, I'm going to look at cams videos over the last month to see how many likes he got.

Have you ever done that with someone else's profile? I've never done that. I've literally never done that. No. Although I have to, to be completely honest, I sometimes look at someone I know, LinkedIn occasionally just throws up a random old post, I'm like, that one only got three likes. Yeah. It's bad luck for them.

Digby Scott (: 42:54

Bad luck for them. well, the world missed out.

But the potential upside is really high. And you might not know, you might not get immediate feedback from that. You might not find out at all. But the number of conversations that start with, I saw that thing you posted three weeks ago.

And it actually has a long tail. I've had not so much videos, but I've had people come up to me. Someone approached me the other day who I hadn't spoken to for 25 years. They reached out to ask for some advice. And the reason they did that is they said, I remember when we met 25 years ago, you had this really strong sense of conviction and direction for your life. And you seeing really clear. And I'm at a point now in my life where this is what this person's saying.

They're looking for that. And they've watched me, you know, just on LinkedIn and stuff, keep sending the same message about what I'm up to and all of that. And there's something about when you portray something about human humanity, that can have a really long tail. And people will remember that because it's, you made them feel something. And this guy says, I felt inspired by you, Digby, back 25 years ago.

And now I'm reaching out to you now because of that. I'm like, wow, you know, that's quite powerful.

Cameron Fink (: 44:17

Well you say you can't not have an impact. So what kind of impact do want to have? You're having one regardless. there's a fine balance of being careful to not be the hero in your own story. Australia and New Zealand in particular, we've got an aversion to tall poppy or people big-noting themselves that doesn't feel good. And there's a balance. You have to tell first-person experience. That's the only thing that you can have authority in. Your own lived experience, truly.

Exactly.

Cameron Fink (: 44:46

But doing it in a way that serves an audience and a wider idea, that comes with practice. That's not necessarily easy to do quickly. And our fear of being seen as the hero in our own story is powerful.

Which is interesting, right, because that story just told, you could say, well, I was being the hero of my own story there, and it was in service of a message.

Yeah. Right. So the impact that it's had on the guy who enjoyed being inspired by you, who looks up to you, that's a net gain. Yeah. And that's more of the focus than you being the hero. But that comfort takes a while to learn of yourself. It definitely took a while for me to learn that. And I think I do it fairly well now. Yeah, and. I so, will. Yeah. Well, the biggest joy I have is sharing moments in public places where something's happening.

I think you do, Stix only will.

Cameron Fink (: 45:40

There's a collective energy and possibly a metaphor or a point to be made. Yep. And I like being the lightning rod for the moment when it happens. Yeah. When it happens. getting comfortable enough to do that took a while, but I quite like it. And I've had a bit of possibly negative feedback about it. had a couple of people saying, Cam, always getting his camera out in the middle of a crowd.

And doing it in the moment.

Digby Scott (: 46:05

And it says more about them than about you, I reckon.

And that might mean they're afraid of doing it. But if it's in service of a better point, if it's in service of an idea that benefits people, then you can roll with a couple of detractors.

Yeah, absolutely, right? And like you're saying before, right? You're not gonna be everything for everyone. Mate, I feel like we're starting to wind up. The question I always love to ask at the end of a podcast is this one. What have you learned or been reminded of in our conversation today?

Cameron Fink (: 46:43

But it's really useful to reflect on how much progress you've made over a few years. And if I think back to when we first met, which was probably eight years ago, maybe nine years ago now, if I looked at that version of me, I'd be really proud of what I do now. I'd be really happy with our relationship, what I've done, what I've learnt, how I've helped others.

I really like that. I've forged a meaningful last decade of my life. And if I focused on the things I wanted to do and haven't, I might not feel that way. Because as, is it Oliver Berkman who said, we underestimate what we can do in 10 years. We overestimate what we can do in a day or a week, but we hugely underestimate what we can achieve in years. And so this conversation has been a really nice reminder of

positive our journeys over the time we've known each other.

I'm so pleased to hear that mate. It's been awesome. Thanks brother. Legend.

Digby Scott (: 47:56

Just a reflection after that conversation with Cam, now that I'm back in the studio and I'm sitting down and there's something really powerful about going walking and talking in nature and how that opens up perspective and possibility in ways that I don't think you can get when you're just sitting across a desk with someone. So that in itself was a powerful realization.

And also his idea when we're talking about naturalness and naturalness coming through. And when I responded, you know, it's about removing the interference that stops that naturalness from flowing through. think this idea of let's remove the pressure, let's remove the pressure to perform and let's focus on just being present. And if we can allow that and allow our authentic selves just to show up.

I think this is a really powerful insight that we don't have to be the perfect leader. We just need to be the present leader. And just by focusing on that, I think we can have a greater impact, more sustainably. We don't have to try so hard. What do you think? I'm wondering what your take out is from this. I hope there's a lot of practical insights or at least stop you in your tracks and get your thinking sort of moments from that conversation.

If you like this, I'd love it if you subscribed or followed in your favourite podcast app so you can get the next episodes and also go into the back catalog as well. And if you like the written word to read, you'd probably enjoy my Dig Deeper newsletter, which comes out every week. And you can just get that at digbiscot.com for a flash subscribe. I'm Digby Scott. This is Dig Deeper. And until next time, go well.